How Do I Find Meaning in My Work?

MURIEL WILKINS: I am Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully, they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Kurt to protect his confidentiality. He’s taken a non-traditional career path by pursuing his college degree later in life.

KURT: I started undergrad at 30 as an experiment. I think at 30 years old, you’re pretty well-rounded in the sense that you have a good sense for yourself, and I just never, I think maybe I didn’t grow up with a lot of family members that have advanced degrees, education was never really a focal point. Income was a focal point, but not education. And I was also riddled with anxiety. The thought of being in a classroom and somebody calling on me was very scary, so I think by labeling it an experiment, it allowed me the space to fail. I went in with the assumption that I would do well, but left myself the doorway with which to escape if needed, if it wasn’t going well.

MURIEL WILKINS: That experiment went well for Kurt and opened him up to other career possibilities.

KURT: I just threw the doors off of what I wanted, and just started really focusing on what I could do. When I started thinking about a career path, I was like, “Well, if I could do anything, what is it that I would want to do?” I really strongly considered the MBA path, and being a little bit more of that entrepreneurial mindset, but I’m also extremely risk averse. And so, recognizing that in myself, I was also thinking, “Well, maybe law school is a good idea, so I could help business owners in the same way that I had, to some extent in my former career pathing, but do so in a way where that risk aversion was a part of the plan.” So, I wrestled with those ideas and landed in law school.

MURIEL WILKINS: Kurt went on to get his law degree and worked as an attorney, which he didn’t find very satisfying. He’s moved to another organization in the legal sector, but in a capacity where he’s not practicing law. I started our coaching conversation by asking him about how he’s feeling about his role, and what’s happening in his career now.

KURT: That’s a good question, “What is happening now?”, Muriel.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah.

KURT: Nothing. I feel like I’ve got to this point and it’s not the thing. It is a thing, it is a thing that allowed me to leverage my degree and my experience and not feel like I destroyed all that by pivoting again. But I recognize that it’s not the thing, but there’s part of me that says, “Well, you can’t just keep pivoting every two seconds until you find the thing. You need to settle in and make a living and rise up through the ranks and continue getting promoted,” and so I think what I’m really finding myself in is this spiral of uncertainty of, where do I go next? What is the next step in order to stop the pivots, or stop the continuously looking at the next thing? I think it was like Mel Robbins was like, “You don’t put all this work into something for nothing. You didn’t survive this long in order to be unhappy,” and it’s not that I’m unhappy, but I do recognize that this is not the thing that I want to be doing for the rest of my life. And so, I think that’s where we’re at now is, what’s next?

MURIEL WILKINS: What’s next?

KURT: Where do we go from here?

MURIEL WILKINS: Oh, goodness gracious. I don’t know, Kurt, where do we go from here? We’ll try to figure something out. Okay, so how do you know that this is not the thing? This isn’t it?

KURT: Some of it’s this voice in my head that I think I’ve recognized being there since I was a kid that was like, “You will feel successful when you feel successful,” if that makes any sense. So, it’s that emotional connection to what I do is what I’m missing. I think that I thought with the practice of law that I would be helping businesses and helping others succeed in what they do. I thought that would be the emotional check that I needed. But what I found was I was just lining other people’s pockets, not making any difference, I was just making people richer. And that was uncomfortable to me. And I think a lot of the reason why I didn’t have the emotional connection to the practice of law. In my current role, I am lucky in that I do have more of an emotional connection because I do get to help others in their career progression, that is really rewarding to me, but it’s not the right emotional connection to the profession that I feel like I need in order to make this the thing.

MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so, if there was an abundance of emotional connection and not a lack of, what would that look like? Describe it for me.

KURT: I go back to prior to this journey, one of the jobs that I had, it was a small business. I was really emotionally connected to helping the owner get her business to be successful. I was connected to her, I wanted to see her succeed, and so I put in a lot of extra time and space that I wasn’t necessarily being paid to do in order to help achieve her dream of what the business would look like. That was so strong an emotional connection and a charge that even on days when I hated what I was doing, it was enough to make me really smile, get up and go and do the thing, because I knew that what we were doing was the really good stuff and we were really creating something. That is the abundance of the emotional connection that I’m looking for is that ability to wake up in the morning and say, “Today’s going to be a really hard day, but it’s not hard for me to put a smile on and do it because it’s worth it, because we’re doing the right thing,” and I recognize today, that though I love my team, I actually really, truly love the firm that I work for, on days that are hard I get up and say, “Today’s just going to be hard,” and I can’t kick myself out of it because I don’t have a connection to something in order to pull me through that. So, I just spend the next two days boiling over how unhappy I am in the role.

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m going to kind of break it apart a little bit because I think what I’m hearing you say is you’re seeking the emotional connection or the emotional response to something, and that emotional response is, as you put it, “It brings a smile to my face because I know why we’re doing it,” or, “If I don’t agree with it or it doesn’t have that thing, then I spend two days, three days boiling over.” So, there is an emotional reaction that you’re having when something is there or something is not there, okay? So, the emotional connection in the way that you are describing it is more of a reaction rather than the thing itself. And I think we need to get to, what is the thing? All right? I’m going to ask you a question, which is, in that situation that you described when you were helping the business owner, I think get their business back up on their feet, is that what it was?

KURT: Pretty much, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: How would you describe the meaning that you got out of that? What was the purpose of it, at the end of the day?

KURT: How would I describe the meaning? I think it is the recognition that there was something else there to be done, a hole that I could fill. It felt somehow unique to me. The person that I was, the knowledge that I had, the skills that I had, what I was bringing to the table was the right peg to fit the hole in that environment. And I think that, connected to my actual emotional connection to the individual person, those two things put together, created. I think that thing, that connection or reaction.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And so look, what I’m asking you to describe is not… Because I hear you trying to figure out the words to describe it, what I’m asking you to describe is nothing concrete, it’s something intangible, I’m rubbing my fingers. It’s a sense that we have, it’s an energy that we experience. The challenge is trying to understand, what is it that creates that experience? It’s no different than, I don’t know about you, but I can go to one event and come out of it and be like, “Oh my gosh, that was great,” and people would be like, “What was so great?”, I’m like, “The energy, the energy was so great,” and then I can go to another event and I’m like, “Oh, wamp-wamp,” right? What was it? It could have been the same people, same venue, but there was something different. It’s the energy, it’s the experience that we have, how we experience it. So, part of it is what you bring to the table and the other part is what are you going to. And when you describe what you are uniquely bringing as the peg that fit nicely with the hole. The hole is [inaudible 00:09:42] there was a need that you were fulfilling. So, how would you describe in, again, going back to that particular situation, what are the needs that you feel you are uniquely constructed to fill, from a professional standpoint?

KURT: My varied experience based upon what I’ve done from a career standpoint over the course of time, but also the resiliency that I have established or built over time because of the things that I’ve tackled in my own personal and professional life, I’m able to use those as tools. I think that is the hole that I’m most able to fill. It’s harder for me to create a sign and hold it out and say, “I’m looking for this,” because I don’t know when those types of environments create themselves, because it is really unique, something as intangible as you were saying, but intangible as resiliency, as grit, as pluck, as the things that I really do think are some of the benefits that I bring to the table, but are harder to define in some respect.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, what’s interesting to me is I asked you, what is the need that you’re looking to fill, which is something out there in terms of what you bring. What you described is, “Here’s what I bring,” and of course when we have certain attributes that we have and we’re able to use them, it makes us feel good. And so, your ability to put that in service is important to you. What I’m getting at is, in service of what? Because that’s the meaning. Why is that important for you to have resilience for you to bring that personal and professional experience to bear? How is that important to anyone else but yourself, or how can it be of importance?

KURT: I think when I felt that there was some connection there, it’s been in areas where… Yeah, I don’t know how to describe it. The way that the question is presented, I think to be completely honest, it has me spiraling into this, “What if there isn’t anything to bring that to? What if that’s just some sort of personal thing that you’re never going to be able to connect to something, and you’ve been looking for nothing for who knows how long?”, and this sinking feeling inside that suddenly, I can’t even think straight because I’m worried that I’ve been searching for something that doesn’t exist.

MURIEL WILKINS: Kurt, I think you’re giving yourself that escape hatch by doing that, so let’s assume that there is something. This is quite the existential question, right? Because we’re talking about meaning. There’s a fantastic book called, In Search of Meaning, and I think at the end of the day, what you’re describing is that: what is the meaning of the work that you want to serve? Because what you have tried out so far isn’t it. The fact that you have pivoted many times tells me that there’s a belief that it does exist, you just haven’t quite grasped it. Here’s the thing: when it comes to figuring out what the meaning of something is or looking for it, we define what the meaning is. It doesn’t come to us in this gold or silver platter. You define what’s important, you define what is of significance, you define what is worth your time, and then you go look for opportunities that reflect that. So this is not a trick question what I’m asking, it’s a challenging question because most people don’t really think about it, but understanding and anchoring around for the sake of, what do I bring these things? What is it that I’m trying to fulfill? What’s the need? What’s the pain point that I’m addressing? Why do I do what I do? And how you define that is totally up to you. I can’t define it for you, but how you define it is totally up to you. And then once you define it, then we can say, “Okay, well then where do you express that?”

KURT: Great.

MURIEL WILKINS: When I say all of that and interrupt hopefully the spiraling, how does that land with you?

KURT: What it reminds me of is one of the experiences that I had in that small business environment was it was a creative industry, it was people that were expressing themselves, and while I did not come from a, “let’s all go to school and get advanced degrees,” background. I did come from a, “let’s create an express background.” And so, even though I consider myself to be a creative in some sense, but I speak creative more than anything else, and I think that is one of the elements that I had in that scenario was that I was the, this is really over-blowing it, I’m not trying to paint myself as this hero in this picture I was not but I was the business side of the model that needed business in order to be successful, surrounded by creatives and trying to interpret that language and that environment, and focusing it in order to make sure that the right decisions were made in order to support it. That was something I identified and that you reminded me of in saying some of the things that you said was that being the interpreter of the creative environment from a business standpoint. That is something that quite frankly I’m longing for, is to be back in a creative environment. I label myself a creative, but I do not do a lot of creative things in the sense that I don’t draw really well, or sing, or anything like that. So, I think my lack of expression of that creativity, I get the benefit of that being surrounded by creative people because I get to have the vibe. I still get the environment, and can speak the language but don’t have to do it. So, I think that is certainly something in the next step that I need is this reconnection to me as a creator.

MURIEL WILKINS: Sometimes in my coaching sessions, it takes quite a while to get a true understanding of a person’s background and the work problem they’re facing. This time around, we really dove in fast. And that’s in part because we’re coming at a leadership challenge from a different angle. While many coaching clients come in to talk about a specific incident or a specific tension with a colleague, a tangible example of something, and then eventually we zoom out to the deeper questions. I quickly got the sense with Kurt that this time around the deeper question is the main pain point. He’s seeking purpose in his work that he isn’t finding so far, despite a number of pivots. And having that purpose in mind is important. Because it really helps guide your career decisions from an intrinsic standpoint rather than only based on external data. Talking about purpose and meaning can feel really ambiguous. So, it was important that I also make it concrete for Kurt. We started to dive into more of the specifics he’s looking for from a job and how he might start getting there. So this is great because I think you’ve knocked out two out of the three elements that I would encourage you to look at in terms of figuring out what’s next for you, whether next is possible where you are or next is somewhere else. Okay. The first is, what environment you operate in. And you’ve just articulated it, like creative environment. You are aligned with being in that type of environment. So that’s very specific. Environment is one thing that you want to look at. The other thing that you want to look at is, what are the types of activities that you are primarily involved in through your work? Are you aligned with those? And I say primarily because it’s never going to be 100%. And from what I hear in terms of what you’ve said is there’s something around helping create, organize out of chaos. Organize and bring structure to problems that arise. What more can you say about that? What do you like to engage in at work?

KURT: Anytime I’m given the opportunity to pick up something that’s been lying there, either because it’s too onerous to deal with, too complicated to handle, not enough people. Anything that’s been sitting there that needs life and direction, that’s what I like to engage with. To put my energy into something to get it off the ground and moving forward. So, I find myself in a professional environment oftentimes picking up the things that are outside of my silo. So I do find out that I spend probably a good chunk of time, probably a third of my working time, doing things that aren’t necessarily aligned in my job description that need to get done because that actually does more closely connect to this idea of, as you articulated quite well, of pulling the chaos together. So I do tend to lean more towards projects that allow me to do that.

MURIEL WILKINS: And this word project is very important. I learned a long time ago, actually, I learned this from another coach, around being able to differentiate in terms of the scope of your work and the time horizon with which you can deal with whatever it is you’re working on. So when you think about projects, they tend to have a shorter time horizon, and it’s more around, hey, there’s a beginning, there’s an end. I see what I need to do. There’s a deliverable. Something needs to be fixed and then it’s fixed or something needs to be built. Whereas something that’s not a project is longer term and might be iterative and it might be cyclical, and we go through the same things over and over again, maybe growing over time. So I hear a couple of things in terms of activity, fix things, build things, project oriented, all activities. So if we lump that together with the creative, we’re starting to come up with a story. I think the piece that’s still missing is for the sake of what? What does this serve? What is the itch that you’re trying to scratch? So maybe I can give an example. Let’s see you say something that’s more creative, actually. You talked about being around creatives. And what kind of creatives? Is it artists, visual artists, musicians? What are the ones that you tend to be drawn to?

KURT: Musicians and visual artists more than anything else. Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Musician. Why do they create music?

KURT: I think it connects with them. They are expressing themselves. They are connecting with others through a somewhat magical connection of unspoken beauty. From my point of view, from a creative standpoint, it is about the expression. It’s the ability to get it out in a way that speaks to other people and can be appreciated. And there’s probably an element of what you’re leaving behind.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So let’s just take that. You said in their profession, if I decided to become a musician, I might find meaning in it because one, it gives me an opportunity to express myself, bringing what I have to offer, to bear. And the second is, that music that I create has an impact on others in the way that they experience it. One of the words you used is beauty. Everybody can experience music in a bunch of different ways. But really the notion is, it resonates with someone in a particular way. So when we bring those two things together, the ability to express oneself while at the same time having an impact on the other, there’s meaning there. It makes sense. At the end of the day, why do we need meaning? Because something has to make sense. That’s the reason we look for meaning. That’s what meaning is. When you say what is the meaning of this word, you’re saying, how do you make this word make sense to me? So that’s what we’re looking for you. What is it that you want to express through your work, which the more business-y way of saying it is, what is the value that you bring? That’s one part of the formula. And the other part is what’s the impact that you’re trying to create? How do you want people to experience it? What difference does it make? So when I break it apart like that, what’s coming up for you on both sides of the equation?

KURT: Maybe this is me trying to create a trap door again, but I think my first reaction is, I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m expecting. I think I get the, what am I bringing to the table. I think I understand and I can make that argument. But I don’t know for what? Maybe I do. But I think where I’m stuck, is that all these pivots, the pivots happen because at the time, the thing that I think is the what for, is the basis of those decisions. And then I get there and I’m like, no. That wasn’t it. So now I think I’m completely second guessing myself as to what for, because every time I made that decision along the way, it has turned out to not be the decision. Gosh forbid I actually use that as a teaching moment of saying, well, maybe it’s cumulative and you needed all those experiences to get to where you are, but my mind doesn’t tackle it that way. It’s like, no. You just messed up again. And I think that’s where I’m at now is that, it doesn’t matter… I need to be able to move off of that in order to come up with the what for.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I mean there’s no messing up here. I think it’s really around… There’s no way you’re going to be able to say, “Oh my gosh, that’s it.” And you know for sure that’s going to be 150% it. You don’t know until you’re in it. Going back to the example of the musician, I mean, look, I’m going to the Beyonce concert. I expect that any song she puts out I’m going to love. But I don’t know. You don’t know until you actually hear it. And then you hear it and you’re like, “Huh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m going to love it.” So that’s the experience part. So, you are creating hypotheses when you go in and say, “Hey, I think that’s what it is. I think that’s where I’m going to be able to make the impact that I want to make,” which we still haven’t really defined what that impact is. But I think that’s where I can make that impact, and that’s where I want to make it. But then you don’t really know if it’s going to land in the way that you want it until you’re in it. So I agree with like, hey, maybe this is the time that you should be thinking it’s cumulative and over time you learn more. Yeah. I think that that’s what it is. So in those past experiences when you thought, hey, yes, this is where I can make the impact, what was your hypothesis around what the impact was that you were going to make? How did you define it back then?

KURT: Well, it’s a really good question because I think I have tended in the last few times to make decisions based upon more about what I felt like I was getting out of it, more than what I thought I was bringing to it. Does that make sense?

MURIEL WILKINS: It makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s that other side of the equation that I’m saying we don’t have clarity on it. Not just what you’re going to get out of it, but what are the ecosystem that you’re in? What are they getting out of it? Which is the impact? What difference does it make whether you’re the one that’s there versus the one that’s not there? What’s the dent that you’re making? And that’s the little piece. My hypothesis is that that’s missing. And quite frankly, I think you’re at a place where it’s like you have to decide what’s the dent you want to make. And it doesn’t have to be permanent. It doesn’t have to mean it’s the same dent for the next 40 years. But at least for now, for the next, that’s what it is, until you start seeing a pattern like yeah, you know what, this is it.

KURT: The first thought that pops up, as you were saying that was the sense of, I think that’s why I thought what I’m doing now would be significant because I get the change or the thing I was trying to bring to the table is helping other people. I thought it was just helping other people. Helping other people move their careers forward, move their goals forward. I do get a lot out of it. But I think what I’m missing is those are very limited engagements. It’s coming in, getting them to the next stage of wherever they’re looking to… Helping them, not getting them, helping them, supporting them as they make those decisions. And then it’s over. And then I move on to another one. These limited engagements where I feel like, as you were just speaking, what came to mind was maybe that’s what I’m actually looking for is the same thing but over a longer course of time. A larger project, a bigger something that doesn’t take just a little bit of what I can bring to the table, but takes a significant amount of time and effort and knowledge and stretch thinking to excite me, to keep me motivated. That’s the thing that I’m looking for.

MURIEL WILKINS: All right. And just to make sure I understand, it’s helping other people move towards their goals and move forward. Is that in a specific area or in general?

KURT: I think the specificity is less important than it being somehow connected to me. And that sounds really self-centered. But what I mean by connected to me is something that drives me emotionally. Not that it’s about me, but that I get excited about it.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, when you do that and you’re helping other people get towards their goals because you come in and apply your magic and are able to create something from nothing, what’s the impact on those others? What difference does it make for them?

KURT: Because I’m envisioning this in various areas, I think it’s hard for me to define it, what it brings to them. But I think providing an environment where you’re delivering something that is helpful, whether that is a new program or a new system or a revised tool. Whatever that happens to be. But something that is useful.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, you want to make sure it’s useful and helpful. So we’re starting to get some pieces together. All right. Let me just play back what I’m hearing. Be in a creative environment where you can offer your ability to fix things, build things, bring something from something that might not exist and bring it to fruition, in service of helping others get closer to their goals, whatever their goals might be. But their goals have to be within an arena of something that is important to you. So it could be in an organization as long as you feel like your organization has a mission that you’re aligned with. And you want to be able to do that over the longer term, not these very short term types of projects. Out of everything I’ve just said, what’s missing for you? Not in terms of where you are, but in terms of your, I don’t quite know what to look for.

KURT: I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of it in the complete thought, to be honest with you. What I can’t help but to get stuck on is how.

MURIEL WILKINS: Kind of make that happen?

KURT: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, I think if you start going to the how, you’re not going to complete the thought. Because the how, if it trips us up, it’s going to keep us from completing the thought. And what I mean by that is, sometimes I start to think about… Well, actually, this happened this past week for me. I was like, I am going to clean and purge my closet out. And then I didn’t really think about what I wanted it to look at. I immediately went to how am I going to get this done in the four hours of free time that I had?

And immediately it was, there’s no way. There’s no way I can clean a closet. There’s no way. It’s too much. How do I break it down? Versus, thinking about, okay, what do I want my closet to look like? How can I break it down into components? What are the different components of the closet? What’s the goal here? Is the goal to purge it? Is the goal just to reorganize it? Is the goal to color code it? What’s the goal? I immediately went to the how. And guess what, guess what happened?

KURT: No closet cleaning?

MURIEL WILKINS: No closet cleaning was to be had. So as much as I am tempted to go to the “how” with you, I’m going to keep us accountable here. and keep us focused on the what with a promise that we’ll get to the how. Okay? But let’s not let the how trip up the what. And I think you’re almost there on the what. Remember how I just said with the closet, I was like, “What’s the goal?” When you’ve had those moments where you do feel like this is what I’m supposed to be doing, such as the example that you gave with that one business that you worked with, and even when things aren’t going great that day, how did you know when you got home that night that, you know what, Kurt, you say to yourself, “Job well done. I did what I was supposed to do today.” How did you know that?

KURT: I think it was easiest for me to see through others’ eyes coming home and having the person that knows you best probably say to you, ‘Oh, you look so bright,” or, “You’re so cheerful when you woke up this morning,” or reflecting it back on me, that’s how I knew.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

KURT: Because I don’t think I always recognized it on my own, but it was easier to see when reflected to me.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I’m going to just offer you a thought that if you rely on how others reflect, whether you’ve done a job well done or whether it’s of significance or a meaning for you, it’s going to be very temperamental. Okay? Because what makes meaning for you is what makes meaning for you. And so what I think, this sounds really cliche, but this is that North Star that everyone talks about. I think that’s really where you are. It’s finding that North Star, finding that purpose, finding that meaning that no matter what happens, as long as you’re aligned to that, you’re good. And I might be saying it in a very simplistic way. What you’re dealing with is not simple. There’s nothing easy about it. That’s why most people don’t get to it and then are like, “Oh, my God. I’ve spent a whole career hating what I do.” But if you can figure out what that is, and then make your career an expression of that, it’s not even really about passion. What I do, not to make this about me at all, I’m very clear about how my career serves me and how I serve my career, and what it is an expression of. And that expression, quite frankly, I do it in this career as an executive coach, but I also pretty much understand that even if I wasn’t an executive coach, I’d still be doing that thing. It could just be in some other career. So I’m career-agnostic. It’s more like, “Am I making sure that I’m serving that North Star or aligned with that North star no matter what I’m doing?” There’s a consistency there. And so what I feel like has happened to you is, over time, you have found different pieces of the puzzle, but they haven’t all come together as one. One piece of the puzzle is working with creatives. Another piece of the puzzle is helping others or organizations reach their goals. Another piece of the puzzle is it being long-term. Another piece of the puzzle is what you bring to bear in terms of your skills, your attributes, your experience. And then the one little piece that I think you have experienced but you just can’t articulate it I just said is like, “For the sake of what?” Again, going back to like, “What is the impact I’m trying to make? Am I trying to make people healthier or am I trying to make organizations more profitable? Am I trying to help individuals, one-on-one, achieve better career results?” You pick. There’s no right or wrong. You pick. Really, it’s a huge field of flowers that you can pick, but it’s honing in on which flower do you like best that aligns with who you are.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: As I pulled out more details from Kurt about what he enjoys in his work, what he’s liked in the past, and what he might be missing now, we dug further into the deeper question he’s come to the coaching session with. The North Star, as I’ve said, is something that a lot of people never figure out, but Kurt is getting closer. We just need to do a bit more work to make sure we have all the pieces we need to start to put the puzzle together. And since we explored a fair amount in one direction and he hasn’t quite gotten to an answer, I decided it was time to try another approach. So, I reframed the question and asked Kurt, “When you’re at work, what are the specific kinds of problems that you really enjoy solving?”

KURT: I think it’s the things that people have given up on or that have no resources. I’ll have to talk to my therapist about that one. I wonder if that’s some reflection about something else in there, but-

MURIEL WILKINS: I won’t ask.

KURT: But, no. It’s the things that, not necessarily the things that nobody else wants to deal with, but the things that don’t have the resources or that people are like, “This is just not going to work.”

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. If you work on those things, what difference does it make?

KURT: The creativity that I do have sees what it can be and uses that as the reason why it should be picked up and given resources.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. I mean, there is a story there. You’re the guy who picks up the things that may have been left behind or that are under-resourced, and you figure out a way to make something out of it that adds value, that people then want to, or organizations then want to actually use. And that has meaning to you. I can feel it. I can see it in your face as we’re talking. It’s important. I mean, you tell me. I’m saying it’s important. But why is that important to you?

KURT: Because I think it provides an opportunity to take something that already exists and use it, recycle it, if you will.

MURIEL WILKINS: And what if that doesn’t happen? What’s the problem with that not happening? If you walk in and you’re like, “There are things that are under-resourced that are not… Nobody’s picking them up, nobody’s fixing them, nobody’s creating something out of them.” Why do you even care?

KURT: It’s a missed opportunity with resources that have already been deployed.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, what? What’s the big deal about missed opportunities?

KURT: It’s a waste.

MURIEL WILKINS: And? I’m [inaudible 00:39:08] my shoulders. What’s wrong with a waste?

KURT: My brain isn’t putting the words together.

MURIEL WILKINS: What’s your emotion telling you right now? Let’s take it out of the brain. What are you feeling when I say that?

KURT: It’s the potential.

MURIEL WILKINS: It’s the potential. What about the potential?

KURT: It’s the abundance of opportunity that something could be, and all of the benefits you get from that, lying on the floor because nobody wants to deal with it.

MURIEL WILKINS: But you will.

KURT: And I love it.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All we’re looking for is the story. There’s no right or wrong. And I’m hearing a story. Not only am I hearing a story, I’m feeling a story. Okay? And the story is… I’m not going to hesitate on what I’m going to say. I know. It’s like, “Damn it. How dare we leave this potential just laying there? I don’t believe in wasting resources. I don’t believe it. And so, I want to do, what’s in my power,” and I’m speaking as Kurt, right? “I want to do whatever I can in my power for us not to waste resources, particularly if there’s huge potential in them. And so whatever I do, I want to make sure that we are using resources in a way that fulfills potential, that we are fulfilling potential, whatever that potential might be. It might be in people, it might be in organizations, it might be in programs. But I am the guy who’s all about making sure we’re not wasting resources, particularly the ones that can fulfill potential, because it’s important to me and I think it’s important to others.” So when I play that back to you, how does it land with you?

KURT: That’s it.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because what happens, Kurt, is like when I ask you what’s the itch that you’re trying to scratch, most of us find meaning because there’s something that we see. Right? There’s something. And it might not be bothering anybody else, no, but it bothers us. And that’s the need. We see a need or we feel a need. Or sometimes you might… I don’t know if you’ve ever been someplace and you’re like, “Do you smell that?” And everybody’s like, “No, I don’t smell anything.” I’m like, “I smell it. I smell it. We got to do something. I have to do something. I have to do something.” And that’s okay. But then we make an impact. That’s how we make it done. You say, “Oh, I’m going to work on this stuff.” We haven’t gotten to the how yet, but at least you have a theme. And I think what’s important here is as you start looking at what’s next for you, it’s whatever other career opportunities that you’re going to approach, do they give you an opportunity to address this theme? Is it a place where you can actually scratch that itch? And if it’s not, then it’s probably not the right place for you. And it doesn’t mean you need to be scratching it all the time, but a good proportion, enough of the time. So then you feel like you’re fulfilling, you’re experiencing where there’s a good marriage between what you bring to the table and where there’s a need.

KURT: Yeah. And I think perhaps some of the frustration that I have is I do see little snippets of that in what I do. And I think that’s it, I’m not doing enough of it-

MURIEL WILKINS: You’re not doing enough of it. Yeah.

KURT: … in order for me to be engaged.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And you have to do enough of it. But not just that, you want to do it in a space where it’s dealing with creative people, we’ve already established that. You want to be able to do it for an organization potentially that you believe in what they’re doing. So now, you’re pulling together little ingredients in the recipe versus saying, “You know what? As long as there’s cinnamon, I’m good.” Right?

KURT: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right? And then I bring you something, you’re like, “Ah, I forgot to tell you I don’t like apples” I’m like, “All you said was cinnamon.” Then it’s like, “Okay, what do you like?” “Oh, I like oranges.” “Okay, great.” So, then I just bring you the oranges and you’re like, “Oh, but where’s the cinnamon?” “Oh, yeah, I forgot. Okay, cinnamon plus oranges.” So, what we’re doing, I think you’ve had bits and pieces in this cumulative career path that you’ve had, and now it’s like, “Okay, how do I, just like a visual artist, bring all the pieces together, the color, the paint, the vision of what it looks like?” So, play back for me what you are gathering, and then we’ll move to the how. What you are gathering are your list of ingredients for what possibly could be a fulfilling career position to be in right now. What are the different components that you’re picking up?

KURT: I need to be in an environment where I’m surrounded by creatives, where I’m able to apply my experience and skill to bring to life or otherwise see missed opportunities or under-resourced opportunities that I can help to grow and create my own in an environment where I feel an emotional connection or some positive connection to the organization and what they’re doing and the space in which I have the time to truly put all of my effort and all of my resources into developing or spending the majority of my time doing those projects.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. I mean, that is a pretty rich picture. So now, let’s talk about how do you make that happen? And I know earlier you said you’re getting a little stuck on the how do you make it happen. What part of the how are you getting stuck on?

KURT: Well, I think there’s two pieces to it. One is, in spite of me being convinced to myself that I have the resources and transferable skills in order with which to do these things, I think it’s harder to always convince others that that’s the case. And I think having spent a decade in law, when I look into creative industries outside of something that’s legally based, I don’t think I’ve had a lot of luck getting traction in general. That is the one how piece that I get hung up on. I think the second how piece is I let that hang me up. I walk into that thought process with a chip on my shoulder, which always stops me from… Not stops me, but it certainly becomes a barrier with which I have to deal with. I think that’s the big thing.

MURIEL WILKINS: One is a practical, like, “Yeah, how do I now make what I’ve done transferable to potentially another environment and get people to buy into it?”

KURT: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: And then the second is the story that you tell yourself about that practical thing.

KURT: Right. Pretty much.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. I know. The stories we tell ourselves. Well, let’s start with the practical one first. I mean, first of all, I think the place to start, and what I want to give you kudos for is the reality of like, “Yeah, you are going to have to persuade or get people to see how what you bring to the table can be relevant to them, even though it’s being transferred from a different industry.” So, yes, that’s the reality of it. And is it possible? Absolutely. That’s number one. It’s possible. It’s done all the time. Number two, do you need a whole bunch of people to be persuaded? No, you only need one or, hopefully, two, so you get to choose. All right? So, I think it’s really the question, are you willing to put in the effort that it requires in order to make it happen, in order to get to a place where you can tell your story and try to, for lack of a better word, sell yourself. Or is it like, “I know it’s possible, I’m hearing Muriel, but do I really want to do that?” And you have to answer that question before you go down, because it is more of a process than just saying, “I’m just going to go get a job.” It’s more like, “How worth it is it to you?”

KURT: And I think as that relates, the desire, and the ability, and the resiliency needed to do that, I know that I have, and I am 110% sure that I can do.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, I feel like there was an and-

KURT: There was an and. But it goes to the next thing. The barrier that I have is keeping the steam to push through the chip on my shoulder. But what I have to keep reminding myself is that, sure there have been pivots along the way. But each of those pivots seemed equally as insurmountable, and I had the similar chip at the time on my shoulder to going into them. But I was able to identify what I thought made the most sense, and push through the chip on my shoulder in order to pivot to something new. So, as I’m thinking about all that, what comes up in my head is, “You just got to keep doing it, this is no different.”

MURIEL WILKINS: This is no different.

KURT: This is just another opportunity for you to identify what the next best step is, and get there.

MURIEL WILKINS: I feel like you are basically living the mission and the purpose that you want to bring to our organizations. You just said to me, what you want to do is go in and find the thing that is resource, but people it’s laying on the floor. But you see the potential, and you want to take that and create it into the potential. Well, I feel like that’s what you need to be doing with yourself. You have the resource, you’re seeing the potential of what you can do, and it’s like, “Okay, be the thing that you actually want to bring to organizations.” I’m sensing there’s this parallel path going on. All right, so this chip on your shoulder, I’m not dismissing it. The chip can stay there, but it doesn’t have to dictate what you do next. And in fact, it hasn’t. It’s trying to, by telling you, “Don’t try again.” But in those moments, we say, “I got you. I’m still going to keep going. Because I haven’t quite found or created the thing that I’m looking for.” That’s a difference too. A distinction. I think you’ve been like, “I need to find the thing.” And I would encourage you, because of the posture that you bring, and what you’ve shared. I think it’s more about creating it. And so what does that mean in practical terms? What I would suggest as an action item is that story that you told me, the components of what you think would be fulfilling for you. Again, our hypothesis as an actionable item. I think one of the places to start, is come up with your list. You’re not looking for a job. We’re not even there. All right? Not looking for a job. Trusted colleagues, people you’ve worked with, people who know you. And I would go, and I would say, “Hey, I don’t know what this looks like, what the organization is, what the position is or whatnot. But here are the ingredients. I don’t know what the final dish is, but here are the ingredients. I’m going to share with you what the ingredients, if you had these ingredients, what dish would you create? What do you think would be a good dish made up of those ingredients?” I think it would be helpful if you asked people, or you went in conversation, and said, “Here are the different components. What do you think a role could look like or the type of company, or where do you think something like this could exist?” And see what they come up with, because I think you’re at a place of really just brainstorming. So many different things that all of those components could make up altogether. So there’s a brainstorming element right now that I would encourage you to live in, versus looking for the one answer.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because I think there are a lot of possibilities here. What do you think?

KURT: I agree. And I think actually it’s the looking for the one answer that has inadvertently become the problem.

MURIEL WILKINS: In what way?

KURT: In some way, I’m expecting there to be some fairy tale moment where the clouds part, the sun shines, and there to be this thing that I walk up to, and we hold hands, and walk into the sunset together. And that’s not realistic.

MURIEL WILKINS: Oh, man. Kurt, I want to be in that fairy tale with you, but no, I wish it were so. But you know what? I think the fairy tale of, “There’s a world of possibilities.” It’s way more exciting than, “There is, the one thing.”

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: And you know why? It allows you to pivot. It allows you to have that thing that you said you had had at the beginning. Which I think you sort of looked at it as a bad thing, but at the beginning of our conversation when you were like, “It gave me an escape hatch.” What if it’s not an escape hatch? What if it’s just like, it just gives you options. The ability to say, “Hey, there are a myriad of possibilities, and I’m going to choose to go from one possibility to the other till all the ingredients are fulfilled.” It’s one way of having a career path. Another way is to say, “I’m just going to do this one thing and that’s it. And I’m going to take this very linear approach.” Which by the way, it’s never linear, and just keep climbing, and getting the titles, and the promotion, and the thing. That’s great if that’s what works for you. But it doesn’t work for everybody. And that’s okay. You have to figure out what the right cadence is for you. So, that fairy tale of the one thing maybe hasn’t served you very well. Maybe it’s not yours.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: So action item number one, come up with your list. Say, “Over the next couple of months, I’m going to talk to 15 people, share with them my list.” I think the second is I would take a hard look at where you are now, relative to the criteria, which is another way of saying the ingredients. Relative to the criteria that you have, and how does it line up. One is how does it line up? And then secondly, are there any untapped opportunities where you are now, that could fulfill those criteria more so than you’re currently doing? And that’s not to mean that you have to stay there, it’s just making the best use of the time that you’re there.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Give it more meaning than what it’s giving you. What else do you think you could do?

KURT: Pulling together the ingredients in order to share them with others is definitely a huge part of it. But I think just spending enough time with what those components are on my own to really have a clear picture of what that means, is also important. So I think I need to spend some time with some of the things, some of the themes that we’ve discussed today, and see if there’s other things there. And really connect with what those elements and what those criteria are, so that I can live it, manifest it, believe it.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. And I would encourage you when you do that, to really stick to the criteria, to the ingredients, not the dish.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because I think when you start thinking about the dish, you start thinking about all the reasons why the dish can’t be made. So stick to the ingredients, and trust that the ingredients will come together. As long as you pay attention to all of them, you bring them all to bear.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, tell me how are you feeling now versus when we got started?

KURT: Good. I feel it’s one of those situations where through our conversation, all these things have been in my head, or in my heart. And I think that almost caused me more stress to have them flying around. And our conversation has been able to really allow me to pluck things out of the air, pull them together, and start to really see a bigger picture. Which I think is really what I was missing. I was almost unable to move because I couldn’t see the bigger picture.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. It happens. But then you see it, so now you can move at least onto the next action item.

KURT: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Thank you.

KURT: Thank you.

MURIEL WILKINS: A lot of people do at some point start feeling dissatisfied with their work. They feel like something is missing, and a lot of the time that translates into a job search to looking to find that meaning elsewhere. But they haven’t always taken the time to really articulate that meaning in the first place, to figure out what it is that’s important to them. I had to try a few different pathways, and a few different types of questions to coach Kurt to that kind of specificity. Along the way, he was also able to start articulating more of his story, which is so important. That story helped him realize that he was getting little snippets of what he wanted, but not enough. Once we’ve laid that groundwork, then it’s time for Kurt, or anyone else in this position, to focus on how the tactical parts of finding a role aligned with purpose. You have to take care of this groundwork first before making the pivot. Otherwise, you’ll just find yourself exactly where you were in the first place, no matter how many different roles you try on. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…

Speaker 1: I would say I have always been a high performer. Most of my life and my career, I have always been on the lookout for what’s the best way that I can both move up and tap into the things that I’m really passionate about. Because it’s my passion that drives those.

MURIEL WILKINS: If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear more about each episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys from the HBR Podcast Network. I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.