Seeing Ourselves as Leaders

AMY BERNSTEIN: I remember the first time I was really challenged to stop being, you know, a follower and be a leader. A colleague saw me in a context where I was supposed to be leading, and I evidently wasn’t because she came up to me afterwards and she said, what are you waiting for? Who are you waiting to say, and now Amy is the leader?

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And you were, you were given every opportunity, and you just blew it.

AMY GALLO: Huh.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And she was so right. She was so right. I mean, I felt like crap when she said it. But you know, that prompted a lot of soul-searching.

AMY GALLO: And what did you do differently?

AMY BERNSTEIN: I looked for opportunities to steer and to offer guidance. And instead of asking a question, I would offer my view, here’s what I would recommend. It was really sort of a — I had to switch the channel from being, you know, I guess I viewed myself as just one of many people on the team to taking ownership and recognizing that if this thing we were working on failed, I would be the one to blame. And it was really like that self-generated thing, where you realize that it’s up to you to make it work.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.

NICOLE TORRES: And I’m Nicole Torres. Making the transition from being one of many on a team, an individual contributor, a follower — however you’d like to think of that role — to being a leader is a process. It’s a process of not just convincing other people to see us as leaders, but also of convincing ourselves that we can and should lead. This episode we are going to be exploring this process of becoming a leader, including the soul-searching that women in particular often have to do to get there. Our guests are experts on leadership development and friends of the show. You might remember Muriel Wilkins from our episode on visibility and Amy Su from our episode on claiming credit. They founded the executive coaching firm Paravis Partners and wrote a book together called Own the Room. And Amy Su just came out with a new book, The Leader You Want to Be.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I was away when this interview happened. So, Amy G. and Nicole will take it from here. I’ll be back later in the episode.

AMY GALLO: Amy and Muriel, thank you so much for joining us.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you.

AMY SU: It’s great to be here.

AMY GALLO: My very first question is, do you remember the first time that you were being seen as a leader — but like the moment you realized, Oh, actually other people see me as a leader?

MURIEL WILKINS: Hmm, that’s a great question. I have to think about that one for a little bit. It was my first supervisory job, which, looking back now, I was naively very young and thrusted into this role and having to supervise individuals who were far more experienced than I was. And while I knew that I was there as a supervisor and as a manager, I certainly didn’t see myself as a leader — but everybody else did. And it took a couple of big fails for me to step into the leadership role and recognize that it was much more than just making sure that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing. So, I do remember it. And now in hindsight probably a little bit more painfully than I’d like to.

AMY GALLO: How about you, Amy Su?

AMY SU: There was a day when I had really lost it on somebody who worked with me and you know, later when I debriefed with that person and you realized how much you were able to cause a bad day for somebody else. There’s just this moment that, wow, you know, perhaps I’m a leader now and my temperament and mood and state of being is actually going to impact the way others feel.

AMY GALLO: Right, that ripple effect. It sounds like for both of you it was not very positive and I think, you know, as we’ve been discussing this topic, we’ve talked about how it’s a bit like an awkward growth spurt to go from someone who’s an individual contributor focused on learning, absorbing, to someone who’s now seen as a leader. I’m curious if that’s how you think of it in your writing and your work with coaching clients. Is this sort of an awkward phase, an exciting phase? How do you characterize it?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I never quite thought of it as awkward, but certainly an uncomfortable phase, which, as we all know, that’s where most of the growth happens. And it’s hard because on the one hand you want to go back to what you are comfortable with and what has made you successful up until now. And on the other hand, you know that you can step into the role that you’re currently in, the potential that you have. So certainly uncomfortable, can definitely be awkward. And at the same time, I think one of the inflection points that is really great for growth for anyone.

NICOLE TORRES: So, I see two challenges or two things that make this such an uncomfortable phase. And the first thing is like, do you see yourself as a leader? So kind of the stories you were describing when you’re placed into a position where you’re suddenly managing people, if you don’t think of yourself as a leader, you kind of have to get into that mindset and realize that your behaviors are going to be interpreted differently because you’re a leader and because you’re managing people. But then the other challenge is if you see yourself as a leader, but other people do not. So maybe you’ve stepped into a managerial role or maybe you’re leading a project and you see yourself as being the one making decisions, but you don’t necessarily feel like other people perceive you as that leader. Do you see those two challenges play out?

AMY SU: Nicole, I think, you know, both sides of that equation Muriel and I have definitely seen, where there’s both your own shift internally around realizing that you are a leader and that you are bringing a different business judgment and a different set of decision-making skills to the table. And at the same time as you mentioned, it’s also interesting to see how perception follows along with that. And I think in our coaching work we’ve always seen that the internal shift often happens sooner, quicker, with a greater pronouncement than perhaps how others view you.

AMY GALLO: Let’s take each of those in turn because I think the internal one, while it may happen quicker seems really, for many people, especially women, hard to make that leap. And I’m curious, when you coach clients who are making that leap, how do you help them? Like what are the major obstacles and how do you help them get there?

MURIEL WILKINS: In anything, right, the internal piece is the harder part. But it’s also the one that is most sustainable in terms of achieving the transformation or the change or the shift that you want to make, whether it’s in your career, or, quite frankly, even in your personal life. And I think with clients, one of the big things they really need to embrace is that being a leader or acting as a leader doesn’t necessarily require the hierarchical position. And so, a lot of them wait till they get the promotion, right? Till they’re the vice president, till they’re managing a team, assuming that that’s when they need to be quote unquote “leaderly.” As though it’s like, OK, it’s a rite of passage, you’re promoted, now you can wear your leadership hat. Whereas in reality, you should be preparing for this from day one. And I think with women, part of the challenge is that they are not necessarily conditioned for leadership positions early on, so they don’t get a ton of practice before they even enter the workplace. Right, if you look at the research even around, you know, the ability for women to raise their hands in classroom — or not women, young girls — you start seeing that dissonance very early on. And I think that follows women into the workplace. So a lot of what we have to work with them on is not just the mindset in terms of seeing themselves as a leader — what does that mean, how do they want to lead, how do they want to be known? — but also starting to understand that there are some specific skills that help in terms of establishing your leadership, asserting your leadership primarily around your communication skills, your ability to speak up, your ability to listen, your ability to ask good questions, how you lead your work and drive your work, as well as even your physical presence, right? How you hold yourself in a room, in a conversation, and can you do it in a way that again, makes you feel like you’re a leader and makes others feel like they’re in the presence of a leader as well?

AMY GALLO: One of the challenges for women is that many of them get the messages that in order to be a leader, you need to, you know, use typically masculine traits. I mean, this is one of the most popular articles we’ve ever published on HBR.org is about why so many incompetent men become leaders, and so much of it is about how we value confidence and assertiveness. And I think for some women, me included, the hesitancy to step into the role in the way you’re talking about is like, Do I have to do that? Right? Do I have to be assertive and aggressive and authoritative in order to be a leader? How do women get over that hurdle? How do we think about that?

MURIEL WILKINS: That is a big sort of life-asserting question that you’re posing here, right? Because the struggle and the tension is between what the world expects you to be and who you are. And so even this, you know, this concept of leadership looks one way, which is, quite frankly, the white masculine way,

NICOLE TORRES: Mhm.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, from my standpoint, in working with women, it’s to A) get them to understand that it is a myth, that the real work starts from within, to understand who are you, what do you stand for? What are your principles? What is your way of being in the world, and the behaviors that make you who you are? And then it’s really getting them away from what their default behaviors and skills might be — again, how they’ve habitually created who they are right now and how they act — and more start to get them to think about what do they want? Right? So, the minute I have a client who says with real conviction that they do want to lead, that’s actually the biggest breakthrough. Because they have to own it. Once we understand that, then we can work backwards to say, Alright, so how do you do this in a way that supports who you are, while at the same time being relevant and resonates with those who you need to lead?

NICOLE TORRES: Are there specific examples of things that you tell clients who come to you and they say, I want to lead, and you know, you want to send them out and have them practice different styles of leadership? What are some things you tell them to do to establish themselves as leaders if they don’t have, you know, the title that denotes certain responsibility, but they want to start embodying a leader? What do you tell them to do?

AMY SU: I think Nicole, the word “embodiment” is really important. We could tell somebody all we want that we’re a leader, we’re a leader, let me tell you, I’m a leader — and it’s really about the felt experience of the other person. So, for example, you might be somebody who historically asked a lot of questions or asked for advice from others. And so, for example, Nicole, maybe in the past I would say to you, Hey Nicole, how do you think I should price this proposal? And instead, I think in a more leader stance, I might come to you now with what I call the “comment and the question,” where I’m sharing with you my business judgment first and then asking a question. So instead, I might say, Nicole, I’m thinking we should price this proposal this way. I think it, you know, inherently keeps the value of our firm and at the same time mitigates risks on renewals. But I really value your perspective. Do you think I’m missing anything here? So there’s a big difference in when our stance is historically, wow, I don’t have the answers, so I’m going to go ask others and follow, versus I’m a leader, I’m going to share with you my judgment, but then hold openness to other perspectives.

NICOLE TORRES: I love that.

MURIEL WILKINS: And then if I can add to that, I think if a client is working in a specific organization that has their own model of what it looks like to be an effective leader in that organization, at a very practical level, I ask them, Do you even know what it means to be an effective leader in this organization? If the answer is no, then they have to go on a little field trip to HR and ask, right, what does the leadership model look like here? Is there one? And usually it’s made up of, you know, eight to 12 skills, and we start working on those skills.

AMY GALLO: We probably have people who are listening and saying, I’ve nailed the internal, I know I want to be a leader, I’ve looked at the competencies, I’ve started doing, you know, exhibiting the behavior, but people around me still don’t see me as a leader. Do you have any advice for women in that situation, where they feel like they’re pushing to be a leader, but yet they’re not getting the response they want?

AMY SU: The word you use, they’re “pushing” really says a lot. I think when we are coming from a place of trying to prove ourself, people can smell that and there’s actually a tremendous amount of insecurity that sits underneath of that. So, there’s a distinction for me between, I really own my expertise and I understand the business knowledge and skills and experience that I bring to the table. I think that feels very different than when you come to the table with, I need to prove that I’m an expert and I hope they see me as an expert. Somehow, folks can smell the difference. And so, I think we need to really push ourselves to say, Is the pressure to prove we’re being an expert actually getting in the way?

MURIEL WILKINS: And I think it’s important to also bring people along, right? Many times, individuals are not pushing back on you trying to grow your leadership wings, spread your wings, if you will. It’s that they’re not used to it. They’re used to operating with you and experiencing you in the way that you have been. I think that it’s actually really helpful to have a couple of advocates, champions, sponsors who are excited for you to spread your wings, and who you rely on in terms of getting advice and counsel and mentoring, however you want to call it, as you’re going through this passage, that way they are coming along with you. And I think for women in particular, depending on where they are in their career, this is especially important. If you have had a male boss or mentor. I’ve seen many women get caught up in a bit of this like father daughter relationship in the manager, you know, when their manager or their mentor is a male. And as you’re growing and spreading your wings, you know, is that really the dynamic that you want to have, whether it’s conscious or unconscious. So bringing people along, being even very explicit that this is what you want, that you want to grow as a leader, that you see yourself in a leadership role, that this is your intent as you go into that next position, how can they best support you in doing that, and asking for their support can be really healthy in helping move through that transition.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen that dynamic play out between two women, where the boss wants to protect the person who’s rising up —

AMY SU: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right.

AMY GALLO: And so they, you know, don’t give them too much work to do or they, you know, go to the meeting instead of them because they have too much on their plate or, and I think there is something to be said for saying to your mentor, sponsor, manager, I got this. Right? This is what I want. I want to move forward. Yes, it’s a lot. But I got it.

AMY SU: And also, I think Amy, to remind your boss or sponsor or mentor how that growth in you actually benefits them because you’re now able to take more off their plate.

AMY GALLO: Right, right.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. But how hard is it to get, you know, a manager or someone who’s mentoring you, someone who’s mentoring you and trying to give you advice for how to grow and be a better employee — how do you get them to stop thinking of you as someone who needs a lot of direction and guidance? How do you get them to start seeing you as someone who can give direction to others?

MURIEL WILKINS: I think if there’s been a trusting relationship up until now, you acknowledge and show gratitude for the support that that person has given you, and you make the request that they let you try it out on your own. Right? So, it’s a both. You don’t want to shun them because they’re supportive and that’s an asset. And you don’t want to let go of that asset. So, I don’t think it’s so much demonstrating, I think it’s actually having that explicit conversation with that individual.

AMY GALLO: That’s making me think Muriel too, that you also have to be specific because if you say to your manager, mentor, sponsor, I want to be seen as a leader, that could mean a zillion different things.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yes.

AMY SU: Absolutely.

AMY GALLO: Right, so you need to say, I want to be able to make the decision on X. I want to be someone who people seek out for expertise on Y, right. I want to, you know, people to value my opinion when I speak up at a meeting, I think be more specific and as you say Muriel, making a request of here’s how you can help me do that —

MURIEL WILKINS: Right.

AMY GALLO: — is really powerful.

MURIEL: Right. And you can also ask in a specific way, right? Seek counsel and say, Manager, I really want to work on my ability to be seen as a leader, you know, six months from now, what would be some of the hallmarks that you’d want to see that you’d expect from me if that’s my goal?

AMY GALLO: Right. You’re also making me think of, when you mentioned the trip to HR earlier about figuring out what the competencies are, I also have seen people and have done myself a lot of observing of other people. And I noticed once that someone, I, that many people thought of as a leader, often said at the end of the meeting, let me know if you want me to weigh in on that. And I was like, Oh, I should use that. That’s a good line because it demonstrates, I have expertise, I’m willing to help if you want my opinion. But it’s not necessarily, you know, if it’s helpful, I will weigh in. And I thought that was like such a nice way to establish this person who had expertise, this was someone people typically sought their opinion from, and it sort of said, I’m a leader without having to be like, I’m in charge, right.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY SU: And I think, Amy, you’re mentioning something here that does distinguish a leader, where you begin to see at more senior levels, people are just more comfortable batting ideas around with each other in a much more peer-to-peer stance. And oftentimes you see somebody who’s still trying to make that turn because they’re still walking in with the over-packaged document, or the over-packaged presentation, and they feel like they can only speak when it’s about their area. And I think part of being seen as a leader is the willingness to bring your judgment, bring your acumen, bat things around in a much more informal way.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well and I know you both, you talk about in your book Own the Room about also, you know, trying to make connections between — so as you get a broader view of the organization you’re trying to make connections between departments or units or different initiatives. So sometimes it’s even about asking questions like how does this impact so-and-so’s project, or how are these two things connected?

AMY SU: And in fact, one of the exercises that I really like to give clients is, as you are stepping into a bigger role or a new role, or you’re thinking of showing up as a stronger leader, what is the percentage of lead and percentage of learn that you need to have as an equation? And so, there’s some part of our work that is, yes, we are leading, we are bringing our skills, we are bringing our decision-making, we are bringing our clarity. But there’s as much a percentage that’s about learning from other parts of the organization and holding a more open stance and actually being planful about that. Who are the other people or functions I could get more information from, what networks might I want to build in this next role? So, it’s important to think about what’s my lead learn in any given situation.

AMY GALLO: I love that.

NICOLE TORRES: I love that.

AMY GALLO: Because not only does that help you transition to doing more leading, but it also, you know, prevents the risk that you just become so focused on leading that you stop learning.

AMY SU: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: And that you think you have all the answers.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right.

AMY GALLO: Yup.

NICOLE TORRES: But does that balance change, you know, over the course of your career? Like something that my friends and I talk about a lot is if you have, you know, kind of come of age in one organization, if you came of age professionally at one company, you know, maybe you started as an intern or you started at, you know, another entry level position and you stayed there long enough and you’ve kind of grown a lot, at least on paper in your role, but also in how you see yourself and how you understand the company. I think a big challenge is still like how do you get people to stop seeing you as that intern, you know, who started like five years ago, and start seeing you as someone who has a pretty good understanding of what the company needs right now and how this organization operates, and can make good decisions to help lead it forward. I’m wondering if you have worked with clients who’ve faced that similar challenge and how you get them to, how you help them overcome it?

AMY SU: It is a challenge I think when you’re homegrown, right? Where you’ve, the organization has seen you at many stages of your development. And so, I think many of the things we’ve already discussed here, number one, you yourself staying updated to who you are and where you’ve been and where you are now is very important. Some of the things that Muriel shared earlier around making sure that you’re keeping others under the tent and being clear on your intentions of growth. And I think really trying to make the advantage of that you have institutional knowledge, you have a loyalty to the organization, you have a history of relationships. And so, as you continue to talk about your career development within that organization, how do you keep bringing those strengths and those benefits to bear in terms of the next difference you want to make. And I think you have to be careful to keep your eyes out for cues. So if your organization keeps hiring external folks into roles that you want, or if you find that folks continue to treat you as if you are a version of yourself from 10 years ago, those are cues that you want to pay attention to and make sure you’re not stagnating.

NICOLE TORRES: And if you are seeing those cues, if you feel like you are stagnating, what do you do?

AMY SU: I think first you try to have conversations with folks about your career development that you do have a loyalty in history, you do feel like you add value, be clear on the difference you hope to make next. And if still, if nothing happens, then I think all of us, and women especially, need to understand that you have market value outside of your organization, and it might be worth having some conversations outside to see what might be possible.

MURIEL WILKINS: You know, this is where I think — and I don’t want to speak in general terms that all women are like this — but this is just my anecdotal experience in having worked with clients, and as you said, like talking to friends. One of the areas that I don’t think women tend to look out for as much as I see their male counterparts do is when they are assigned a new position or role or project, do they make the assessment of, have they been set up for success? And so to this point around when you’re homegrown, using that actually as an advantage if you are, if you are offered a new role, a new position to really take a step back before accepting and negotiating what you can to make sure that you’re set up for success. And so, what does that mean? Right? In practical terms, for example, if you have a concern that the peers, that the people who used to be your peers are now going to be reporting to you and how’s that gonna play out? Being able to get your boss or your manager to explicitly show your support and have that person help get buy-in from those peers, now direct reports, sort of smoothing the stage before you get on is a way of setting up conditions to help you be more successful. We tend to have this mindset that when we’re offered these roles, you know, the mindset tends to be, Oh my God, we’re so thankful, you know, we’re grateful — Oh, lucky me that I made it this far, versus what I tell my clients, I tell myself, I tell my kids like, No, like you’re lucky to have me. Right? [LAUGHTER] You’re lucky to have me. Right? I’m bringing value. I’m bringing it on. I am excited to be here. You are excited to have me here. You offered me the role, so let’s, you know, let’s kick this thing off and really make sure it works for everybody.

AMY GALLO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: And I think that’s a mindset that really helps in terms of being able to get that support and getting people to, getting people to see that you are also excited. You’re not stepping into it hesitantly. You’re stepping into it because basically, you know, it’s almost like I’ve been ready for this, right? The time is now. Let me go for it. And at the same time, as Amy said, use all the social capital and institutional knowledge that you have as a benefit rather than as a crutch.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I was asked a question recently by a woman of color, a black woman who said that she worked in an organization where she just felt like she was never going to succeed because of her race and her gender. And she said, how do I know when it’s just not going to happen? You know, where I’m not going to be seen as a leader because of these biases versus, you know, I haven’t done enough yet. And I’m curious if you have advice for someone in that situation.

MURIEL WILKINS: I would look at what are the signs that she’s getting. Number one, you know, when she looks ahead of her in terms of the different ranks, what does that look like? Are there any other women or people of color or, you know, bingo, bonus, women of color that are more senior? So, is there a track record there? Secondly, is she getting support even in the role that she’s in? Right? Is she being offered, even if she has to ask, opportunities to be able to get not only visibility, but also more experience and exposure because those are the things that will actually get you ahead? It’s the visibility, the social capital, as well as the knowledge capital, which only comes through experience. So, has she had enough at-bats at that? And are there possibilities for her to get that? If she’s getting knocked down every time she asks, well then that’s another sign. The other is, you know, is she able to attain a sponsor even if it’s an informal sponsor within the organization? So, what I would say is if, you know, all things being equal, if your performance is great, right? Let’s assume the performance is really top notch, and we’re not questioning that. But if you’re able to sort of do everything that you can in these other areas that I spoke of and over some time, it doesn’t seem like it’s leading to anything, then you do need to have, you know, a frank conversation with yourself around whether this place is the place that’s going to set you up for success in terms of the goals that you want. And you also have to ask yourself, you know, what’s your time limit? And everybody’s is different, right? I do think that some people opt out too early. But I also think that you need to set a time range, and sometimes you don’t really know till you go elsewhere.

NICOLE TORRES: So I really like your advice on having explicit conversations with managers or whoever that you know, lets them know that you want to lead and here are all the things that you’re willing to do and here are ways that you could use their support to get better. But I’ve also gotten the advice from people to like just start leading, you know, like just, if you’re given like the task to be in charge of something, then like really assert yourself in leading that. So, schedule meetings, like start sending emails about those things, you know, like really attach yourself as the person who’s responsible for a given project. And I’m wondering if you know, are there certain moments when you should just do that?

AMY SU: Nicole, I think that moment exists every day, and I would encourage people to just do that. Right? When you take any project that you’re working on, I think the push to ourselves to say, Am I thinking about this project simply as a set of activities that I need to execute well, or am I pausing to think about it differently? If I looked at the same business problem, but now I put it on a three-year horizon, or if I thought about the risks involved, or if I thought about the competitive benchmarks. I think there’s so much more that we can each do every day to bring a different level of strategic thinking to the work we do, to the way we communicate. Are we framing up in a more senior level way? So, I think the world of possibilities to demonstrate a higher order of leadership is available to all of us at every moment, whether somebody gives us permission or not.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. How do you stay, I know we all have those moments of doubt — we talk about imposter syndrome on this show. But if you are, you know, a leader, if you start seeing yourself as a leader, and you sense that other people doubt you — you know, people think that you have progressed too fast, they kind of still see you as someone who needs training wheels — like how do you just preserve your own sense of confidence so that you know you can lead and some people are just wrong about you.

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, one of the things that I think is really helpful, particularly when you take on a management role for the first time and you start leading a team really upfront, very, very early on, getting on the table, what people’s hopes and aspirations are in terms of you being the leader, but also understanding what their concerns might be, right? And that ability to listen upfront around the concerns gives you an added advantage in terms of being able to not get the defensive but address them. And also hearing what the expectations are because the more that you can start being in tune to those expectations and potentially meet some of those expectations and get some quick wins — that starts building your credibility. The biggest watch-out is to get defensive. Because if you get defensive, it’s just going to alienate everyone, right? And you don’t want to be in that position.

AMY GALLO: What if you’re not sure if you want to lead? What if you’re on the fence about taking on more responsibility? How do you decide whether this is actually something you want to do?

MURIEL WILKINS: I think you need to, this is where you really need to think through what, you know, what do the next couple of years look like for you? I don’t think it’s a lifetime decision, right? Some people look at it as what do I want to do with my life. And I, for one, I really think just look at things in a three to five-year horizon. Five years seems like a very long time to me. So really focus on the next couple of years rather than this is for the rest of my life. And from that standpoint, one of the best ways that you can do that is to look ahead, right? What could be the possibility five years from now? What are the different scenarios? And which ones sits better in terms of being more aligned with what you want? What you don’t want to have happen is, I don’t want to follow that particular scenario out of fear. And that’s a very different way of opting out. I remember early on in my career, I recognized that I was getting very close to really being in a position to gun for partner at a consulting firm. And while I did believe that I could do it, the question was, did I want to do it? And those are two very different things. So, I think the first question is, do you think you can do it? The second is, do you want to do it? And while I believed that I could do it, I recognized after a lot of just my own self-searching and talking to others and looking at those who are ahead of me, even those that I greatly admired, that that was not what I wanted. And the reason I didn’t want it is that that wasn’t the way that I wanted to make an impact. Right? And so, having the ability to sit back and think about those two questions — do I believe I can do it, and do I want it — are very critical.

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY SU: And I think there’s, you know, people out there similarly who, in the question of do I want to do it, end up being guided by a should, that career success looks like being a leader and having this many direct reports and as long as that universe keeps growing, then somehow I’m successful. So, I think Muriel’s point around do I want to do it? Does this make sense for this next phase of my life? I had a colleague recently who went from leading a team of 50 people, an organization of 50, and she and I talked about how at this stage of her life, as she looked at the next four years, both of her kids are in high school, and she realized that she went to her boss and said, Over the next four years I want to be home more, I’m finding that I miss some of the work I got to do day-to-day because now I’m really managing other people. So, she’s moved back to an individual contributor role. And that’s what works for her at this time. So, is she any less leaderly? No, I think this was just a woman who was very in touch with what this next phase of life meant to her and what was the work that was going to feed her as well as feed her family.

AMY GALLO: I like that because I think we often have this idea that leadership is just a, you know, straight incline, and you just acquire more things to — more initiatives, more people, and that’s the only way to grow. And I love that she’s not any less a leader, she’s just stepping back from those particular responsibilities.

AMY SU: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: Amy, Muriel, thank you so much for joining us. This has been super helpful.

AMY SU: Thanks so much for having us.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you. This was great. Thanks for having us.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well what does it mean to be seen as a leader to you?

NICOLE TORRES: I think it’s a term that we throw out there. Like some people are like leaders, like I can think of a handful of people who are like so commonly referred to as leaders, and other people who I’ve never heard called leaders — even though the actual work they do, like there’s a lot of managing and leading.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t think you’re talking just about yourself —

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: — I think you’re talking more universally, but I think you might be surprised at how many people in roles of authority view the people you’re talking about, who don’t have the formal authority, as leaders.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And that’s why they keep going back to them to take on new initiatives. That’s being seen as a leader by leaders. Right?

NICOLE TORRES: Right.

AMY GALLO: In my experience, I’ve either been doing it before people have formally accepted it, and I’m just sort of going for it, hoping they’ll catch up, or I notice way too late and I’m like, Oh, this was an opportunity where I should have been more leaderly and I thought of myself as a follower.

AMY BERNSTEIN: See I notice it in its absence, when someone whom I expect to manage — and we don’t need to get into the difference between management and leadership — but someone whom I expected to lead a project failed to take ownership. And that shows up as asking for guidance on every single decision that I would have trusted her to make.

AMY GALLO: Or sitting back — I’ve done this myself of just sort of sitting back and waiting for the group to move things forward, and rather than taking the lead, you know, and being in control and determining this is the next step, this is what we’re doing.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh that’s so, yeah, that’s really smart because the other way I’ve seen it show up is someone who’s been put in charge of a project and thinks that the right way to make decisions is to take a poll of the room rather than to make the decision. You put someone in charge of a project generally because you trust her judgment. Right?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And you trust her to get all of the information and insight she needs to make the best decision.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES: And speaking of like decision-making and how confident people are in your decisions, the things I think about that would, you know, assure me that people see me as a leader are people listening to my opinions and respecting the decisions I’m making, or is there like a lot of waffling? Like are my judgments not trusted? Is there a lot of questioning over what I’m trying to offer?

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I think that gets to the heart of why it’s difficult for women often to assume leadership roles because it’s difficult for us to be heard sometimes.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Right. Well, and also, I mean we know from lots of studies that when we think of a leader, we think of a man. And so, there’s sort of this extra hurdle for women trying to make this transition to do all of the things we’re talking about and also challenge what we think of when we think of leadership.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Without coming across as a cold witch.

NICOLE TORRES: Right. Yep.

AMY GALLO: Yep. This isn’t exactly leadership, but when, after I wrote the book about conflict, I was starting to talk to people about doing talks about the book and I just didn’t see myself as an expert. And I think a lot of leadership is about being, you know, having expertise, being someone people look to for insights or judgment, as you were saying, Amy B. And I actually had a trick where I wrote on a Post-it Note “I am an expert,” and just put it above my computer. And anytime I was going to have a call where I needed to remember that I’m in charge — and I think it could work, right? Write a little Post-It: “I am a leader.” You don’t have to put it right on your desk, but I think that sort of gentle mantra reminder is super helpful.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, waiting for someone else to give you permission —

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: — you know, isn’t going to get you where you want to go. Right?

AMY GALLO: Yes.

NICOLE TORRES: Yep.

AMY GALLO: Well and you have to embrace it. And I actually remember the day where I took the Post-It and threw it away because I was like, I don’t need this anymore.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I have arrived.

NICOLE TORRES: It’s in here.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Like, I believe it. I don’t —

AMY BERNSTEIN: I’m off the train, I’m in the station.

AMY GALLO: Right. I remember during my consulting days I actually would get bored in client meetings, and one of the ways to trick myself into being more engaged was to act as if I was in charge and what would I say right now?

AMY BERNSTEIN: I want to try that!

AMY GALLO: And like sort of play out, what would I say now? How would I direct this? What would I do? And I think it really changed the way I was viewed because my insights were that much more insightful, or that much more helpful. And I felt like I was in a driving role as opposed to a contributing role.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Because you were getting out ahead of it.

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You were really, you were trying to steer the car.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Instead of just riding in the backseat.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES: But did you get any pushback for that? Like was that seen by people as you were trying to hijack things that were owned by other people?

AMY BERNSTEIN: No, not really. I mean, I think the — partly I was doing in a very emotionally intelligent way of not just like raising my hand every two minutes, we should do this, we should do this. I think I was gauging when was appropriate, watching for reaction. Sometimes it would be that the partner on the project afterwards, I’d just say in the, you know, taxi ride back to our office. I’d be like, you know what I thought of during that meeting was this, this, and this. Sometimes it wasn’t even saying it out loud in the moment, it was just thinking about what would I have done. And it was literally a trick to get me to stop being bored, but it really did set me up to be much more of a leader. And I got a promotion soon after. I think that —

AMY BERNSTEIN: But you also weren’t worrying about what people thought because you were trying not to be arrogant and you were focusing on what you could control, which was the attitude that you brought to it and your openness.

AMY GALLO: Well, and it didn’t, it also helped that I didn’t, I wasn’t trying to prove myself. I was trying to do something totally different, and in the process, I happened to prove myself.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But I think that sometimes people are reticent, and women are often reticent because they’re afraid of appearing too pushy.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And in that way they’re holding themselves back. And most of the time when we fail to emerge as leaders, I think it’s because we tap the brakes too much on ourselves.

NICOLE TORRES: But sometimes like that fear of being perceived as pushy, like that’s a legitimate fear. Like if you are pushing for things, you can be seen as being too aggressive and not getting along with others.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But if you’re pushing for things for the right reasons, then who cares?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Well, I think to your point, Nicole, I think what we understand from the research is that women are penalized when they seem to be pushing on behalf of themselves. When they push on behalf of the collective — so if you’re trying to further the initiative, help your team, you know, realize the organization’s mission — we tend to allow women to drive a little bit more. And I mean, personally for me, I feel more engaged when I’m doing that, when it’s on behalf of a group, not just myself.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, it’s so much, it’s so much easier to advocate for the group or the project.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: And wouldn’t we all be better off if everyone, not just women, advocated on behalf of the collective rather than themselves?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my god. What would we do?

AMY GALLO: But Nicole, you’re on this cusp, you’re going through, we talked about with Muriel and Amy that it was sort of this awkward growing pains. Like how are you feeling about it right now?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. I’ve been thinking a lot about this. It’s, I think it’s true — this is an awkward growing phase that is part like me having to deal with myself and make sure that I’m not the one holding myself back in terms of seeing myself as a leader and having the confidence to lead, but at the same time like I was really curious in that interview with them, like what about all of the external stuff? Like even if I see myself as a leader and I know I’m in a leadership role — other people around me and their perceptions and how they regard me like that really matters in my ability to be a leader and also see myself as a leader. One of my experiences of, you know, realizing that that external side was really important was I was leading a project, or I thought I was leading a project, and in a meeting, when we were talking about ideas, like someone, you know, I said something and someone didn’t like my idea and they just told me I was uptight.

AMY BERNSTEIN: What?

AMY GALLO: Oh my gosh.

NICOLE TORRES: Like in front of the whole room. Like I was the uptight one, even though I was advocating an idea for this, like larger project.

AMY BERNSTEIN: OK, but you know that that was obnoxious.

NICOLE TORRES: Oh, totally, totally. But in my mind, I was like, I thought I was leading this, and I had, I thought that that was clear. But then I realized like because that statement was made, like maybe that is not so clear.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, before this meeting, was the rest of the team informed that you would be leading?

NICOLE TORRES: Not really.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: But I think that happens a lot.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, but see that’s not good.

AMY GALLO: No, I mean it’s not, but it happens a lot. And I think there’s many times we have to lead through that ambiguity to respond to hopefully less vicious forms of attack. Right? And we can’t let that comment, that type of comment stop us from leading.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Because you just, you, yeah. I mean, I totally, that stinks, basically. That’s what I want to say.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, but here’s the thing. I mean, when someone does something like that, you just have to reflect it. They’re in a pretty bad place, you know, to launch that rocket at you.

AMY GALLO: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: There are only some things you can control.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: Exactly. So, what should have Nicole said in that moment to be seen as a leader? When someone says something like that? Like what’s a, what’s the leaderly thing to do when someone —

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s such a good question. What is the… Well, first of all, I don’t think, I think engaging with it is a mistake.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES: Just get out!

AMY GALLO: Yeah, you can leave now.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Or what you can do is try to disarm them with humor.

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You know, just make it clear that the comment was noted, but more important, the attitude was noted.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Are you criticizing me or are you criticizing my idea? Because I thought we were talking about ideas here.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Or you know, switching to a more constructive line of conversation — you know, something like that.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: There’s a way to call them out without calling them out. I would, I don’t know. I sort of — of course, it’s so easy to say when I had absolutely nothing to do with the situation, but you know, talking to that person afterwards and saying, what was that?

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: If you’re comfortable enough with that person to say it. I mean —

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. I mean something I wish I did was like have just a conversation afterwards to say that really wasn’t cool, and I don’t know if you meant it like that, but like that isn’t cool and it doesn’t sound good to me and to other people who hear that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES: Instead of like go home and tell my boyfriend about it and complain and tell all my friends, could you believe this happened? And now talking about it on this podcast! [LAUGHTER] I think there are ways I could have handled it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, in another couple of decades you’ll have worked it out.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, totally.

AMY GALLO: Because clearly we have.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, right. I mean I can remember all the slights I felt when I was, you know, when I got promoted and someone came up and said, Well, why do you think you got promoted? I mean that was like 30 years ago.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, I mean we do, those things stick with us.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. That Facebook friend request is still sitting in my inbox. [LAUGHTER]

AMY GALLO: You don’t hold a grudge.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Not at all. [LAUGHTER]

AMY GALLO: You see me as a leader when I want to be seen as a leader or I will not be your Facebook friend.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Who’s promoted now, bitch? [LAUGHTER]

NICOLE TORRES: Oh, this does, we didn’t, hey, we didn’t talk about this, but now you’re making me think of it. What if you are like a senior leader, whatever, mid-level leader and you, there are other leaders in the company too, and you all kind of have to work together? Like who, who wins out? What if there’s a conflict there? Have you ever been in that situation?

AMY BERNSTEIN: But you don’t approach it as a conflict situation. I mean, when I’ve been in this situation, one of the things we talk about, or I will bring it up is, Alright, so who’s doing what here? You have to, you know, you have to have that conversation at the beginning of a project. It’s the roles and responsibilities. Because when you don’t, when those aren’t clear, you’re not going to get anything done. And you know, I’m thinking about how to handle the next meeting where it’s not clear that you’re the leader. Maybe you open it up by saying, So the boss, Bob, has asked me to organize this team to do X, Y, and Z. And here’s the brief he gave me. So, let’s talk about how we’re going to get this done together. You know? And make it clear that you’re assuming leadership because the responsibility is yours.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: I think establishing upfront, either as explicitly as that or just taking charge of the meeting. So, you know, starting by saying, OK, we’re here. Our goal is to do this. Everyone on the same page about that? Great. I have some ideas. I’d love to hear some ideas from the group. You know, just sort of taking control of that moment and being the facilitator.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Particularly if you’ve prepared. I think that’s a great approach. Because so much of leadership in the workplace and you know, 2019, 2020, is about leading through influence without formal authority.

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: We’re all doing it. Right? And so, you have to be able to show that, you know, you’re the one who’s really thought through this project and how it’s going to run its course.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: I will say the most common advice that I keep getting and talking about this is like, don’t ask for permission. Just if you want —

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my god. Don’t.

NICOLE TORRES: If you see yourself as a leader and you want to be leading something, then you own that and take charge of it and start leading. And someone gave me, I was talking to a coworker, and she gave me really good advice. Because I was kind of saying, you know like, I’ve tried that and it just didn’t work, I can’t just take control of something. She was like, Why not? And I said, you know, maybe I don’t have certain things, certain skills that leaders need to have. Like there are parts of these projects that I don’t really like doing. I don’t feel super organized. I don’t like doing all of the organizing of people. And she was like, Leaders don’t have to do that all the time. Like your leadership style maybe means you get someone else to do all of that stuff. That blew my mind.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, well, first of all, delegate. But secondly, I mean, no one does it all well. You have to recognize what you do well, and you know, the stuff you hate or that you don’t do well — and usually those are the same things. I hate process. I am so glad that my closest colleague on the magazine goes to process, you know, immediately and is really, really good at thinking it through.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And I think that’s an important point is that being a leader doesn’t mean you have all of the skills already.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.

AMY GALLO: And that you like doing it all, right? Like it’s OK to be ambivalent about lots of parts of this.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I mean, you know, one of the things about leadership is there are a lot of tough conversations and there’s a lot of — you’re not going to make everyone happy. You’re not going to be a good leader if all you want to do is make everyone happy.

AMY GALLO: Well that, OK, we didn’t talk about that with Muriel and Amy, but that is a huge piece of it, is that being a leader is about sometimes making people mad, disappointing them, and being OK.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes. I grappled with that the first time I really took a formal leadership role, and I had to go from, you know, wanting to be liked by everyone to figuring out how I could get myself past that. Because a lot of what I was promoted to do was to institute change. And that makes people really, really unhappy.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and to make all the decisions that we’re talking about and to be, you have to make tough calls.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah.

AMY GALLO: Right? And you have to, you have to ask people to do things they don’t want to do. You have to tell people, No. You have to, you know, move things from one part of the organization to another. So, there’s losers and you know, you can’t be so focused on being liked. I actually think that’s a huge transition point.

AMY BERNSTEIN: It’s huge. And also, you have to sort of figure out how you want to show up. This is what you were getting at before. You have to think about what really matters to you. And, you know, maybe the way to do it is to figure out what you admire in leaders you admire. I mean, what is it about the people whose leadership you really look up to that makes you look up to them? And that’s a conversation you have to have with yourself. It takes some thought and it takes some analysis. And then it takes some commitment. I mean, sometimes you have to do things that make you super uncomfortable, but you do them because you know it’s the right thing to do.

NICOLE TORRES: But I guess, what advice do you have then when you are, when you’re doing that and like you get pushback from people? Like how do you not waver in your confidence when you have to make the hard calls? Like if people are just doubting you and your judgments on those calls?

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, remember that because you’re leading a project, it doesn’t mean you have to make all the decisions on your own. You’re seeking input from a lot of different people. So, you want to have confidence in your decision. There are a lot of decisions you make in the role where, you know, it could have gone one way or the other. And I think transparency helps a lot. We could’ve gone this way, but I think we need to go this way. Here’s why I think we need to go this way. I recognize what makes the other way preferable, but this way you know, is going to handle more of what we need to handle. Something like that. Just owning that this was on the bubble. Because no decision is often way worse than the suboptimal decision.

AMY GALLO: And if people are saying that won’t work, you’re making the wrong decision, say, Why? What are the risks? OK. How do we mitigate those risks? What would have to be true for this to be successful?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And turning the objections into a more constructive conversation. I think you’re so right, Amy.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Because sometimes those objections are genuine and they’re pointing out true risks that — great. That’s helpful to think those through, do what you can to avoid them. And sometimes they’re questioning because they are trying to undermine you. And when they’re trying to undermine you, focusing on the content is, I find the best way to go around that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: The content and the purpose. You’re so right about that.

NICOLE TORRES: I’m going to listen to this next time I go into a meeting.

AMY GALLO: Well, and I think that you’re in that spot where you’re going to have your confidence questioned. And I think in some ways it’s just a matter of sticking to the course, knowing you’re going to get pushback, knowing people aren’t always going to say, Yep, here’s this leader opportunity, go ahead and make the most of it. You’re going to have to take it.

NICOLE TORRES: Right.

AMY GALLO: And it’s not always going to be great.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But the other thing is that you want to be seen as — I’ll guess, fair and thoughtful, and you know, committed to getting the job done well and committed to the team. You know, it’s, those things will shine a lot brighter than making sure that Mary likes you, right?

AMY GALLO: Well, and that’s a good point too, is that as you’re moving into this role, it’s not a bad idea to write down what kind of leader do you want to be, what are the values? Because you can return to that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. That’s on the next Post-It Note. [LAUGHTER] You threw out “You are a lead” — or “You are an expert,” right?

AMY GALLO: Right. Now it’s fairness, equity, thoughtfulness — right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Whatever you want to be the points of your compass. Those might be the things you write down.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. I like that exercise. I feel like this turned into a career coaching session. [LAUGHTER]

AMY GALLO: Nicole’s on a couch. You can’t see it, but — [LAUGHTER]

NICOLE TORRES: With my guides!

AMY BERNSTEIN: With snacks.

AMY GALLO: With snacks. Always. Always with snacks.

NICOLE TORRES: So, this is our last episode of the season. But we’ll be back.

AMY GALLO: Thank you to all the women who contributed to this season with their ideas, questions, stories, research findings, advice, and encouragement.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And we’re grateful to our editorial and production team for helping us turn those contributions into episodes. That team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Adam Buchholz, Rob Eckhardt, Mary Dooe, Erica Truxler, and Cori Brosnahan.

NICOLE TORRES: You don’t have to miss us while we’re away. You can subscribe to our Women at Work newsletter, which comes out every month, and is a really good way to keep up with what we’re publishing about women and leadership on HBR.

AMY GALLO: And if you don’t already subscribe to HBR, please do. It’s the best way to support the show and it makes a lovely holiday gift.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, we’re going to take a couple of weeks off and then get back to planning another season of the show. We want to hear what you’d like us to cover. So, email us at womenatwork@hbr.org. Until next season, I’m Amy Bernstein.

NICOLE TORRES: I’m Nicole Torres.

AMY GALLO: And I’m Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.