How to Manage: Conflict

AMY BERNSTEIN: All right, Kelsey, what was one of the most memorable conflicts you had when you were managing people?

KELSEY ALPAIO: There are so many that I can think of. I think the one that comes to mind most vividly, when I first started managing people, I had a direct report who was underperforming in different ways. They weren’t really completing tasks that I was giving them. The tasks that they did complete weren’t completed the way that I wanted to. And my first instinct was, oh, maybe I just should not give them more tasks. I’ll just do it all myself. I know how to do it. It’s going to be great. And I challenged that. So, I’m proud of myself for that part of the story. I challenged that and said, you know what? No. This is a learning experience for this person. It’s a learning experience for me. I’m going to have a talk with them and I’m going to confront them about their underperformance. And I’m a pretty anxious person about this stuff. I’m not great with conflict. And so, I wrote down everything I was going to say to them. I practiced it. I sat in a room by myself, actually said it out loud, which can be really weird. And when the time came to actually give that feedback to them, we had a one-on-one. I sat down on that one-on-one and I was like, Nope, we’re not doing this. I just panicked and was like, we’re just going to have a nice pleasant one-on-one, and then we’re going to go our separate ways and go sit back at our desks and do what we need to do. And at the time, it felt great. I was like, oh, I love that I didn’t have to just confront this person and give that negative feedback. And obviously over time I was like, okay, I’m going to have to have this conversation eventually. And I don’t know, it just sticks out in my head because it was really a turning point for me in terms of why did I shy away from that when I knew it was good for me and I knew it was good for that person. And yeah,

AMY GALLO: I have a lot of things to say.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Go for it, Amy G.

AMY GALLO: One is, I think some people would say, was that even a conflict? I would define it as a conflict, because I think of a conflict as any time you and another person’s needs, wants, desires are not aligned. So, it may be an unspoken conflict, it may be an all-out fight, more likely it’s probably an exchange of tense conversations, words. So, I would define that as a conflict. But then I think the other question is what kind of conflict? And I find it helpful to categorize conflicts because that helps you figure out how to actually address them. And it sounds like what you’re having is what I’d call a process conflict. So, how do you actually get something done? So, maybe you agree on the goal, your goal is to finish these three projects by X date, but the question is, how are you going to do that? Are you going to do that by taking them all on at the same time, by sequencing them? So, that might have been the disagreement between you and your direct report. And then once you know what you’re disagreeing about, you have to decide what to do about it. And I also think there are four distinct approaches to handling. One is to ignore it, which is what you chose to do. We can discuss if that was the right choice. Two, to address it directly. That’s where you sit down, hash it out. Three, you address it indirectly. You might use stories, metaphors, you might go through an intermediary to help you resolve it. And then the fourth, which is the last resort option, is to just bail altogether on the relationship. So, that would’ve been, in this case, you firing the person. Are you quitting your job? Which didn’t sound like a reasonable response. I’m glad you didn’t use it. Most often, it’s not a reasonable response.

AMY BERNSTEIN: All right, Amy, that is exactly why we’re so grateful you’re here for this conversation. You know how I feel about conflict.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Not your favorite.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Nope.

AMY GALLO: Okay, but you don’t avoid it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: No, I cannot avoid it.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. That’s your job as a manager.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s right.

KELSEY ALPAIO: I actually read that managers spend 40% of their time resolving misunderstandings and interpersonal problems.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Sometimes it feels like a 140%. You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Galllo.

KELSEY ALPAIO: And I’m Kelsey Alpaio. Amy G, I’m also so grateful you’re here to guide us through how to prepare for, manage and resolve conflict as a new manager. Between my questions and the questions our audience has sent in, we have a lot to cover.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Before we get to the specific questions, Amy G, let’s cover the fundamentals, like preparing for conflict before it happens. Earlier you were talking about what process conflict is, and then you said there were other types. What are they?

AMY GALLO: Yeah, I think it’s helpful to know just a little bit about them. So, task conflict, which is a disagreement over the goal, what we’re trying to achieve. There are status conflicts, which are a disagreement over who gets to make the call, who’s in charge, who has authority. And then there are relationship conflicts. And those are where it’s personal. The important thing to know about the four types is that they’re not mutually exclusive. So, it’s not like I have a nice tidy task conflict. I can just clean that up. It’s more often a hot mess of all four.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: And you might disagree about the process and realize you actually disagree about the objective, and then you disagree about who gets to make the call about the objective. And then you start exchanging snarky emails and it becomes personal.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, and that’s a great day.

AMY GALLO: That’s just two emails.

KELSEY ALPAIO: As you lay these all out, I just want to leave the room because I’m so conflict avoidant, and I’m wondering – what do conflict avoiders like me need to know about our natural tendency to shy away from disagreements? I cared so much about harmony and being liked by my team that I wanted to keep the status quo, even though I knew it wasn’t working.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I love the image of you, Kelsey, skipping back to your desk like, that one-on-one went well when you did nothing you set out to do. It’s classic avoider behavior of just being like, oh, I’m so glad that everything’s okay. I want to be clear in my book, HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict, I divide people into two categories, conflict seekers and conflict avoiders. But it’s really more of a spectrum. And it will depend, like Amy B, you might identify as someone who likes to avoid conflict, but you lean into this seeker style when you need to, so you can do it. And I actually think of you as someone who’s not afraid to say exactly what she means, even if it ruffles a few feathers. And that’s more of a seeker style. But avoiders, I think one of the things to know is that you’re valuing something that’s really important. You’re valuing relationships and harmony, like you said, you’re not valuing directness and honesty maybe as much, and that’s okay. It’s just a choice you’re making, but you have to watch out that you don’t default to that. There’s going to be the immediate thing you want to do because it feels most comfortable, or it feels easy, or it feels right. And really, you have to think a little bit further ahead; in one month, next week, six months, is the choice I’m making about how to deal with this going to get me the results I want to see? Because you skipping back to your desk did not help you or that direct report. And so really, if you think about, okay, what’s the short term discomfort I have to experience in order to achieve the long-term goal that I really want? Which, of course, requires you to be clear about what the goal is.

KELSEY ALPAIO: And I think before I became a manager, it was so much easier to just lean into being a conflict avoider as opposed to a seeker. And then it was like I was thrown into this pit of conflict, and now all of a sudden it was like I had to seek it-

AMY GALLO: Yes.

KELSEY ALPAIO: … And I was like, no, thank you.

AMY GALLO: Well, and I think a lot of people who are more senior in their career, what I hear them say is, well, my natural style is to avoid if I do value relationships and harmony. But I’ve had to learn to be a seeker. I’ve had to learn to be direct enough.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay. So, I just want to say that you can be a seeker, which I hear is a non-avoider and care a lot about relationships. But I wonder, Amy G, what tendencies do conflict seekers need to be aware of in themselves?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I think of the conflict seekers as the people who lean in when the tension gets high in a room, they might put their elbows on the table, get a little excited. They stir the pot, they’re willing to just say it like it is. One of the things you have to watch out for is it can feel like bulldozing, especially to avoiders. And if you have an avoider who’s really genuinely afraid of conflict because they think it’s antithetical to having positive relationships – which is an assumption we should challenge – but if you have someone who’s deeply afraid and you start stirring the pot, they’re just going to roll over. They’re just going to back up, or you might get them on the defensive and then you’re not going to have a productive conversation. So I think seekers really have to watch that they’re not dominating the conversation, that they’re not just doing it for sport, and that sometimes letting the conversation or the conflict go is the right thing to do.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, there are options.

AMY GALLO: Yes. Exactly.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And it sounds as if different contexts, different situations present different options for you?

AMY GALLO: Yes. And what you want to make sure you don’t do is let your default response to conflict, determine what option you’ve… Kelsey’s deep discomfort with conflict allowed her to just completely let go of that difficult conversation. And so, you have to challenge, Okay, I know what my default is. I know I tend to avoid. I know I tend to seek whatever it is. And then ask yourself, Okay, but what’s the best thing for this situation? Keeping in mind that goal. What is my goal here? Is it to help my direct report perform at their best? Is it to get this project done on time? Is it to get out of this meeting because I’m losing my mind? What is it exactly that you need to achieve? And then decide what the right approach is to lead to that outcome. Now, you might get it wrong. You might decide, well, you know what? I’m going to let it go. And then the conflict gets worse. And so, it’s like, Okay, no, I have to take a more direct approach.

KELSEY ALPAIO: So, in the story I told, I knew it was the right thing to do to approach this person, but I didn’t get to the point where I challenged my avoidance. So, say I was able to challenge that and seek it out. You have to just keep challenging yourself again and again throughout that conversation. How do you do that?

AMY GALLO: That’s such a good point, because there are going to be 100 moments in that difficult conversation where you’re going to want to default to your avoider style. So, part of it is also reframing, is this a confrontation you use? I have to confront them. Is it a confrontation? It sounds like a conversation about their performance in which you’re trying to help them. And I think partly what avoiders often think is that by being direct, by raising the difficult conversation, they’re hurting someone. And I think Amy B, you were alluding to this earlier, it’s not harmful to have a difficult conversation. In fact, it’s quite often the opposite. It’s helpful. It’s the kind thing to do to tell that person that they’re not performing up to snuff. And so, I think you have to reframe it for yourself and then notice your natural tendency. And it may be like you get two steps in, in the next conversation and bail. Let’s get back to your desk. But then next time you get four steps in, and I think anytime you’re trying to build a skill is you make the mistake because you will make the mistake. And then ask yourself, what would I have done differently if I was in a better frame of mind? Okay, let me try that next time. Try that next time you make a mistake again. But hopefully it’ll be a different kind of mistake. Learn from that.

KELSEY ALPAIO: So, I think you’re right. I can envision myself getting to the second step, the third step of this conversation, and just still shutting down, still not being able to move forward, still skipping back to my desk like everything’s great. What should you do if you find yourself in the middle of that conversation and you just start shutting down?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. All of the neuroscience shows that we are terrible at these types of conversations that require empathy, emotional self-control when we are shut down, when we go into what they often call amygdala hijack, our brains end up protecting us, not actually doing the thing we need to do, which is often caring about another person or delivering a message clearly. So, if you were shut down, don’t trudge ahead. Give yourself a moment, and it might be the more skilled among us might need 30 seconds to take a deep breath, reorient themselves, remind themselves of the focus. If you’re new at this, it might be better to take a break and say, you know what? This conversation is really important. I want to make sure that we’re both in the right frame of mind to have it. Let’s take a break, come back to it tomorrow. Or you might even say, you know what? Let’s pause. I’m going to go get a glass of water. Do you want to come with me to get one? Just switch things up to give yourself a moment and take the break you’ve bought yourself to reflect on, okay, where did I get tripped up? Why did I start melting down? Fair enough, but why did that happen? What can I do differently to prevent that and then come back to it?

KELSEY ALPAIO: So, now that we’ve gone over some of the most common causes of conflict and our natural tendencies and options, let’s talk a little bit more about conflict with direct reports.

AMY GALLO: Great.

AMY BERNSTEIN: We received several anecdotes from listeners who are new to management and are relatively young, and they’ve had to deal with more experienced direct reports who wouldn’t listen to them. So, how do we handle that kind of conflict, Amy G? First of all, help us categorize it.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, I think having someone who’s not listening to you is probably a status conflict. Who gets to actually decide who’s going to do what or who gets to speak up or who gets the credit? The challenge is my instinct, my strong instinct is that in most situations, this is an issue of age bias or another type of bias, especially if you’re a young woman, there might be gender bias. The problem is knowing that does not help you necessarily address it more efficiently or effectively because you are then in your head, this person doesn’t like me because I’m a woman. They don’t like me because I’m young. I don’t think it’s helpful.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, it does help you separate yourself from the source of the conflict. Is that-

AMY GALLO: Correct. This is not about me.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: And I think in this specific situation is a really important phrase and reminder, this isn’t about me. This is about them. This is about their bias. This is about… And you’re not going to address all of that. Instead, you need to address what’s actually happening. And I would start really small. What is one thing they didn’t listen to you about that you need them to listen to you about instead of going into generalizations like, they don’t respect me, they’re never going to listen. You might have all those feelings, and they might be really valid, and they might be true, but I think that you really need to focus on what is it in that moment you actually need to get them to do. So, let’s just say you gave them a project, they’re like, yeah, yeah, I’ll do it. And they just still haven’t done it. And you come back to them, wait, how’s that project going? Yeah, yeah, I’ll get to it. And they still haven’t done it. Now you’re having status conflict, but there’s also a task conflict. Do they understand the goal? Do they understand how they should do the project? Can you set a short term milestone that they actually need to achieve rather than the whole thing and expecting them to chunk it up themselves? And I think you want to also make clear what’s going on. I’ve asked you three times about this project and you’re not making progress. What’s going on? A very neutral question, which is going to feel like a confrontation, but it’s important that they actually follow through on what they do, and it’s your job as a manager to hold them accountable to doing that. I don’t know. Is that something you can imagine yourself doing, Kelsey?

KELSEY ALPAIO: I like that question specifically because it doesn’t feel too scary to ask it, but it gets to the bottom of what’s going on.

AMY GALLO: Yes. And you can’t presume you know what’s going on, because I think that’s the danger is you might presume it’s age bias or gender bias. You might presume they’re lazy or they’re insubordinate, whatever. But the minute you start telling them why they’re doing something, you’ve totally offended them. No one likes to be told why they’re doing something. You’re never going to get it right. So, instead ask them what’s going on.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Asking someone in a genuinely inquisitive way, what’s getting between you and finishing this task gives them a chance to give you an honest answer.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And it’s a bit of a Jedi mind trick you have to do because that you have to have that genuine curiosity. The minute you are certain they’re doing it because they disrespect you or they don’t take you seriously, or you’re certain it’s because of your age difference, there’s no room to allow the dynamic to change. Certainty is the death of these collaborative conversations. So, you have to find a way to genuinely be curious about what’s actually going on.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And imputing motive is almost always going to get you on the wrong track, I think.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. There’s research, I think it was Lindy Greer at Michigan who looked at what happens when you assign people feelings. I know you’re upset or you must be sad. And people almost universally get it wrong, and so we have to be careful we don’t assign people these emotions and tensions because it’s just not helpful.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And imagine being assigned a feeling-

AMY GALLO: Oh, it’s terrible.

AMY BERNSTEIN: It feels awful.

AMY GALLO: It’s terrible.

AMY BERNSTEIN: It’s so condescending.

AMY GALLO: Yes. Yeah. Even if they’re right, it sounds wrong.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Because it didn’t come out of your behalf-

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, it sounds like you’re being talked to a toddler. Use your words.

AMY GALLO: You should use your words-

KELSEY ALPAIO: But not like that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.

AMY GALLO: All right. What else have we got?

KELSEY ALPAIO: So, one question I had for you, and again, I’m talking about one of the biggest mistakes I made when I first became a manager. I wanted to be the cool boss so bad. I wanted all of my direct reports to want to be best friends with me and for us to go out for drinks afterwards. And obviously there’s a lot of issues that come with that. One of them being, when it came time to actually sit down with them and say, Hey, I’m the boss here. We have to have this conversation. It made it so much harder to bridge that gap. So, how can you handle conflict with a direct report or colleague that you see as a friend?

AMY GALLO: I think before you even get to that point as a manager or as a new manager, you really have to focus on being respected, not liked. Being the cool boss is great. It’s nice if they like you, but that’s not your main function. You need them to respect you. You need them to believe you have their best interests at heart. You need to be warm. I’m not saying you can’t be friendly, but your priority is being respected and conveying what you need to convey for them. That said, I think you can be friends with people you manage. I just think you have to always be clear about what hat you’re wearing. In fact, you both know when I started at HBR, one of the people I reported into was a very good friend of mine, and it was very nerve wracking to think about this exact scenario of, what happens if I mess something up? And we would start each conversation saying, what kind of conversation is this? Is this a work conversation? Is this a friend conversation? What hat are you wearing? I’m wearing my hat as your boss. I’m wearing my hat as your friend. And I think you will want to lay that out with your direct reports ahead of time, especially if you start to become friends. I think a lot of what happens with new managers is they’ve been peers with someone who now they’re promoted to manage and they did have a friendly relationship. So, it’s helpful to have a conversation at the beginning and say, “The dynamic has changed. I think it’s important we acknowledge that. What I want to do is make sure that I’m clear about what hat I’m wearing, and I want you to understand that there’s things I might not be able to tell you. There are things I might have to say to you that as your friend, I wouldn’t want to, but as your manager, I have to.” And just making that clear up front so you contracted ahead of time.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Something you just said seems so important, I just want to underscore it, which is that you have to know where the boundaries are.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Because if you’re not clear on them, the friend/report isn’t going to be clear on either.

AMY GALLO: They’re going to follow your lead.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: I think there’s another issue that comes up, which is the issue of fairness.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: So, let’s say you do tell your friend/direct report something that you haven’t told others, and that gets out. Now you’re going to be seen as an unfair boss. Talk about conflict. You’re now going to be dealing with a team that doesn’t trust you, that thinks you play favorites.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You know why? Because you just played favorites.

AMY GALLO: Correct. When you’re navigating those relationships, I think there’s two principles, respect over likability, and equity and fairness are premier. You really have to make sure you prioritize those.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I think that part of the equity and fairness piece is making sure that you’re always really clear about what’s guiding your decision making.

AMY GALLO: The intention.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: Starting everything, my intention with this is to. Having that conversation with your new direct report about having to be clear about what hat you’re wearing might feel uncomfortable. But if you say, my intention here is to make sure this relationship continues as smoothly as possible, and I do my best as your manager because I want to do right by you. Yeah. The one time I managed, and it was very short-lived, I definitely wanted to be the cool boss, and I did everything I could to make this person like me and unlike me, and then the way I totally ruined it was then my boss told me to give her, and I think I might’ve shared this story on a previous episode, but as my boss told me to give her feedback about something, I actually didn’t think needed feedback. It was about her taking time off, and I was like, she’s getting her job done. I don’t care how much time she’s taking off. I don’t care if she’s calling in sick. And I couldn’t digest the feedback and deliver it in my own way. I just decided I had to do exactly what my boss said. I delivered it with no concern for the direct report, who I also considered my friend. And it was just a mess. She just started sobbing. It was terrible. It was terrible.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Job well done.

AMY GALLO: Exactly. I will tell you, this is before I started doing all this work.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.

AMY GALLO: But I think I’d do it a little bit better this time.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Let’s talk about managing conflict among direct reports. What should you do if two of your direct reports are in conflict with each other? When is it your job to mediate that situation and when is it not?

AMY GALLO: You want the conflict to be resolved at the lowest possible level. So, if you can help them resolve the conflict as opposed to stepping in with authority or direction, it’s going to go much better over the long run because now hopefully they’ve figured out they can resolve their own conflicts, and you’re not going to be required to step in all the time. So, it’s your job not to necessarily intervene, but it’s your job to make sure everyone can do their job. That’s one of the main jobs as managers. So, if this conflict is getting in the way of them doing their job, yeah, you have a responsibility to do something about it. And I would encourage coaching first, maybe separately, having a conversation with each of them, asking them to see the other person’s perspective, what’s going on, what do you think is motivating them? Why do you think they’ve done what they did? And maybe challenging their viewpoint if it’s a little bit biased or one-sided in a gentle way. And then getting them to articulate what’s actually at stake. You can talk about the four types of conflict. What type of conflict is it? Asking them to articulate their goal and then get them to decide on how they want to proceed. And then you can do that with the other side too. Eventually, you may need to sit down with both of them if they can’t do it. And I think one of the things you need to make explicit is that part of your job is collaboration. None of us have a job that doesn’t require that. So, part of your job is collaboration. Sorting this out is your job. It’s not my job. It’s your job. Well, actually, let me, as I say that, I want to step back because one of the things you first want to do is make sure you haven’t inadvertently created the conflict by not being clear about expectations, by setting up competing goals, by fostering unhealthy competition. Maybe you’ve done something you can change that would diffuse the conflict, but once you’ve sorted out your part in it, then I think it’s on them to really sort out, along with your coaching, how have you done it Amy B?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, if one person comes to me complaining about the other, I have learned, because I’ve made the mistake to say to that person, I need to get the other side, and then to get the other side, first of all, when you say to someone, I’m going to get the other side, the story sometimes shifts just a little bit.

AMY GALLO: Correct.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t think people intentionally lie.

AMY GALLO: Nope.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But I do think people will make their case.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And then I do get the other side, and then I have said, “listen, do you want me to adjudicate this? Or do you guys want to work this out knowing that I know what’s going on?” And sometimes what you have to do is get underneath the bone of contention, if you will. You have to find out what’s really going on here.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: What’s pissing you off?

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: What do you think that is going to happen? What are you afraid of here?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I think about that as the negotiation term of interests, not the position. They’ll show up with their position, I want X.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: He won’t do this, but what’s the interest? What’s the underlying reason why they want that? What’s the underlying reason they can’t get along? And then try to address that, not negotiate between their positions.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Should we talk now about competing interests?

AMY GALLO: Yeah, for sure.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yes. So, what if your boss wants something different for your direct report than you do? We have a listener, Jen, who shared an experience with us about this. Let’s hear from her.

JEN: The company had a directive that they really wanted people to either do strategy or execution. So, that impacted two of the people reporting to me. Instead of them both doing projects end to end, I had to have one of them start doing just strategy and one start doing just execution, not what they signed up for, frankly, when they applied for their roles, I tried negotiating for that, roles and responsibilities changed to not happen for my team because I felt like things were working so well that this change wouldn’t be good. But I was not able to make that happen. So, once my manager let me know that no, we need to move forward with the way the direction has been given, then I just had to do that and figure out a way to make that work for my team.

AMY GALLO: These are my least favorite types of conflict because you’re having a conflict both ways. You’re having a conflict with your boss and with your direct report. And I think the temptation goes two ways. One, you might try to just please your boss and say, okay, fine, I’ll have the conflict with my direct report. Tell them they have to work on this even though I don’t believe it, or the temptation is to just advocate for your direct report at all costs. Neither I think is the right approach. Part of being a manager is trying to please all of these stakeholders and while still keeping a focus on your goals and your targets. So, I think for someone like Jen who’s stuck in the middle, first of all, I would feel out what you think is the right thing? Consider both their perspectives or all of their perspectives, there might be even more people involved. And then consider what you think is the best for the work you’re trying to achieve. And then go back and say, okay, that means I need to advocate to my boss to change their mind and let me give my direct report. Maybe there’s a compromise that feels like the right thing, or maybe it’s that I have to deliver the news to my direct report that I actually agree with the higher ups about what you should be focused on. I know it’s not what we agreed on, or I know it’s not your favorite thing, but here’s why I feel it’s important. And I think the key is to really always tie it back to the business goals. What are you actually trying to achieve? Why you’ve made that decision, and then deliver it clearly. I think the worst thing you can do is to let that stew of conflicts just get deeper and murkier. And if you can be clear about what you want or what you think is best, and then negotiate on each side of that, I think you’re better off. I think one of the worst things, and I can tell you I’ve been very tempted to do this myself, is to just be like, Oh, boss, can you talk to direct report? Great. Hey, you handle it, because then you’ve just, you look powerless.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. As I was looking at this question, I would ask… I would go back to my boss if I were in this situation and ask, “why, what’s behind this decision?” Because I do want to buy into it, or if I don’t agree with it, I want to disagree with it on the merits. And there is a certain amount of mediation involved saying to your direct report, “listen, I’m getting some pressure to switch around the way we’re doing things. Here’s what the boss is saying. Before we do this, I’m going to go investigate.” There’s a lot of transparency involved here. And then investigate, ask the question, have the conversation with your boss and where you say, I’d love to understand why you’re asking for this change. Here’s where my resistance is coming from, and just help me understand so I can explain it in a way that is persuasive. Yeah.

AMY GALLO: I love that. Help me understand so I can explain it, because you may not get a satisfying answer and your direct report may still be unhappy with the decision, but at least you’ve understood it fully to your capacity. You’ve been made clear what the intention behind the decision is, and the question may be to your direct report, all right, I know you’re not happy with this. I think in an ideal world, I might have made a different choice, but let’s talk together how we can make this work.

AMY BERNSTEIN: The other thing I would do is if I really had doubts, and because I really think my job is to advance the interest of the organization, is to say to my boss, how about if we do this, we’ll give it six weeks or six months, and then let’s check in. You have to be open-minded.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But getting directives without any explanation violates a basic rule of management.

AMY GALLO: Yes. And we have to recognize that that sometimes happens.

AMY BERNSTEIN: It happens, but we’re not powerless.

AMY GALLO: Yes.

AMY BERNSTEIN: We can go back and say, just help me understand.

AMY GALLO: And then, I’m thinking of the worst-case scenarios of your manager saying, well, because that was the decision, or even worse, I don’t know. The guy above me made that decision. I don’t know. The woman above him made that decision.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. I don’t know. I would not be happy if my boss said-

AMY GALLO: Because so and so made-

AMY BERNSTEIN: – “because he made me.” You could not say that with any kind of pride. No, come on.

KELSEY ALPAIO: But as I hear you talk, this was one of the most common forms of conflict I feel like I encountered as a new manager. And my tactic was always to be like, Well, that’s what the boss said. So, that was my approach. So, to hear you lay that out, it’s one of the worst possible things you could do. It’s funny to reflect.

AMY GALLO: But what made you do that?

KELSEY ALPAIO: I think what made me do… it comes back to wanting to avoid that conflict and being able to blame somebody else was the ultimate way to avoid conflict. Because it’s like, you can be mad. This is a bad situation, but it’s not my fault. We’re still BFFs. We’re still going to go have drinks after work, and we’ll all talk about how much we’re mad at the higher ups for doing what they did. And it was a way to bond with my direct reports, and it was a way for me to not have to confront this thing that obviously I struggle with a lot.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, when you’re taking down management over margarita, at what point do you realize, well, wait a second, I’m management now.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: I’m taking down myself.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Well, and it’s a perfect example, Kelsey, of prioritizing likability over respect.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: You think in the moment they respect you because you’re in on it with them. But the minute you have to tell them to do something, they’re like, what? You’re one of us.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: Wait, we were taking down management over our margaritas.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And more to the point, “I don’t know why I’m asking you to do this” isn’t going to inspire a whole lot of respect.

AMY GALLO: No, no.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Definitely not.

AMY GALLO: Or motivation.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, hell no.

AMY GALLO: But that’s a great way to get someone to give the least amount of effort to just get something done.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: And to be fair, sometimes you say, this is just a box we have to check because this is what’s required. We all have been in that position.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Just check the box. Hopefully that’s not a major part of their job.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But you have to choose your battles and you say to your team, we have to choose our battles, and this is not the battle we’re choosing and here’s why.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, That’s right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But you always have to go into the Here’s why.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yes.

AMY GALLO: Yes.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, let’s talk about another question we got from a listener, Crystal. She asks, “how can you be open and honest with your team while shielding them from the office politics going on around and above you?”

AMY GALLO: You want to help your team understand how the organization works. You want to help them navigate the informal politics, but you don’t need to give them the play-by-play of the manager’s meeting.

AMY BERNSTEIN: No. The other thing is you can’t coddle people. You get three people in a room, you’re going to have politics. So, the shielding piece… I’ve been chewing on the whole idea of shielding people from politics. The blow by blows, the sharing of nasty little details that probably not necessary, but people really shouldn’t think that management, leadership and teamwork is frictionless.

AMY GALLO: Correct. I love the way you said that Amy, because you want to be sure they understand that conflict is normal.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And any decision is going to involve trade-offs. Sometimes the right thing to do is to be really transparent about the trade-offs. We know that if we do X, we’re going to take a little hit over here on Y, but we decided that it’s more important to do X, and we made this decision because this was the information we had. And in sharing the rationale, you’re bringing people on board. If other information comes to light, you would want your team to surface that.

AMY GALLO: Yes. Yes. And then to say, here’s the decision. Go off and do it. And instead of saying, Hey, there was a great debate at the manager’s team about wanting to do this and wanting to do this. Some folks felt this way, other folks felt this way based on this conversation, which to be fair got heated at times, but we came to a good conclusion we’re going to do this.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: If you find out in the process of carrying that out that there’s actually more data that would inform this trade-off we made, let me know. I think of the sharing of office politics as sharing of gossip, which is that the research shows that gossip most negatively reflects not on the topic, the subject of the gossip, but the gossiper.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Of course.

AMY GALLO: So, if you sit up there going, oh, so-and-so’s department hate so-and-so and they blah, blah, blah, blah, it makes you look bad.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Of course.

AMY GALLO: It doesn’t make them look bad. This connects back to Kelsey’s question about the cool boss, is you have a lot of information that feels like power, and it is power, but if you use that to try to bond with your direct reports or get them to like you, or you exchange, it’s becomes transactional like, I’m going to give you this information because you think it’ll make them perform better for you or be more motivated. You got to question that.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Okay. I know we need to wrap up. Kelsey, I’m dying to know, because you started this by talking about how much you hate conflict, how avoidant you are. Has this helped at all?

KELSEY ALPAIO: It has. I came into this episode saying, “Amy G’s going to come in here and absolutely destroy me.” I was so ready-

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, you so know her.

KELSEY ALPAIO: I was just so ready, because I know I’m bad at this, and I’m very self-aware of that. But I do feel differently, and I think the reason this has helped me is because I’ve always treated conflict as something super negative, something to avoid at all costs. And I think hearing you both speak, you speak about conflict from a place of it’s actually there to help you. It’s actually there to help everyone on your team. It’s actually there to help your organization, and that’s just not a way that I ever thought about it. I always took the negative approach to it. And so, coming away from this, I think my mindset around it is just very different, and I appreciate that a lot.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And just remember that conflict avoiders are not the ones doing it wrong. I think in our culture, we do value the directness and sitting down, hashing it out, but addressing every single conflict with complete directness and honesty is not the right solution.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my God. Who wants to be with that person?

KELSEY ALPAIO: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: So, I don’t want the conflict of avoiders who maybe chose to listen to this episode because they’re like, I need to get better at this, to feel like they’re doing it all wrong. Again, no one’s doing it right. It’s just a matter of recognizing what your instincts are and trying to decide, do I follow those instincts because it’s the right thing for this situation, or do I need to go against them because it’s the right thing for the situation? Well, I look forward to hearing about your next conflict.

KELSEY ALPAIO: You’ll be the first person I message.

AMY GALLO: Maybe it’s our conflict. Maybe we’re going to have a conflict.

KELSEY ALPAIO: Oh, gosh. Immediately, I’m like, I hope not. But we can handle it.

AMY GALLO: We can.

KELSEY ALPAIO: I feel confident now.

AMY GALLO: We can. Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And that’s our show. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.

KELSEY ALPAIO: And I’m Kelsey Alpaio. HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Women at Work’s editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Rob Eckhadrt, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

AMY GALLO: Thanks for listening. Our inbox is always open, womenatwork@hbr.org.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And Amy G. wrote the book on conflict. In fact, she wrote two books on conflict.

KELSEY ALPAIO: The HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict, and her latest, Getting Along, both of which you can find at store.hbr.org on Amazon or wherever you buy books.