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Astronaut Scott Kelly on Working in Space
Scott Kelly, a retired U.S. astronaut, spent 520 days in space over four missions. Working in outer space is a lot like working on earth, but with different challenges and in...
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Scott Kelly, a retired U.S. astronaut, spent 520 days in space over four missions. Working in outer space is a lot like working on earth, but with different challenges and in closer quarters. Kelly looks back on his 20 years of working for NASA, including being the commander of the International Space Station during his final, yearlong mission. He talks about the kind of cross-cultural collaboration and decision making he honed on the ISS, offering advice that leaders can use in space and on earth. His memoir is Endurance: A Year in Space, a Lifetime of Discovery.
SARAH GREEN CARMICHAEL: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Sarah Green Carmichael.
I have a pretty nice view from my office: trees, the sky, some hills in the distance. But it’s nowhere near the view that Scott Kelly had. He could look out his window and see the graceful blue curve of planet Earth.
The retired NASA astronaut had that view for 520 days. But Kelly wasn’t up there to just look out the window. He was up there to do his job.
On the International Space Station, he had to route cables for new docking ports, perform science experiments, work with astronauts and mission control centers from other countries— and yes, just fix the cooling system.
Kelly’s role as space station commander required extraordinary cross-cultural collaboration. It meant being prepared to make decisions in life-or-death scenarios. And it meant just getting stuff done and getting along with the crew.
Kelly may have won his insights in space, but he has management and career advice for those of us who are stuck here on earth. His new memoir is Endurance: A Year in Space, a Lifetime of Discovery.
He was interviewed by HBR Assistant Editor Josh Olejarz, who, as a kid, dreamed of becoming an astronaut.
JOSH OLEJARZ: When you’re in space, does it feel like a job? Does it feel like you’re at work?
SCOTT KELLY: Yeah, it feels like when you wake up, you’re at work, and when you go to sleep, you’re still at work. It feels like you’re living in your office. But it’s an incredible office. Right? It’s got an incredible view. The feeling of floating is fun and liberating, but also makes things much harder to do.
JOSH OLEJARZ: When you’re in space, and you can’t get away from your coworkers, the other astronauts, if someone annoys you, you know, what do you do, like—?
SCOTT KELLY: Well, you know, people are kind of preselected to get along with each other. There are a lot of people that are my very close friends, family, people I know, people I worked with. They wouldn’t do well. But NASA and our international partners pick people that can deal well with being close quarters with other people. They work well together. They’re good teammates. They’re good followers. So, the potential for conflict is very low.
But you deal with it. You know, you have your own private space if you need to get away. I’m sure people vent to the folks on the ground. We talk to a psychiatrist, psychologist every couple of weeks. They ask us, you know, ever time, how are your crew members getting along? How are they doing? How are you dealing with them? Anything they do that’s bothering you? I’ve never really personally experienced much conflict—almost no conflict in space. You know, occasionally someone will do something to get on your nerves, but then you realize you’re probably doing sh— to get on their nerves, too.
JOSH OLEJARZ: There are a number of countries collaborating on the International Space Station. Does it feel like you’re working specifically for the U.S.? Or is there any kind of feeling of working for the whole planet?
SCOTT KELLY: So, you definitely feel like you are a representative of the whole planet. You do work for all the different partner agencies, clearly. You know, I’ll do a Japanese experiment. I’ll be fixing something in the European module. I’ve launched on the Russian Soyuz. But at the end of the day, I’m a NASA astronaut. I represent the U.S. government. But I do feel an extension of the civilization of Planet Earth, representing all the people.
JOSH OLEJARZ: How do you build relationships across cultures, when you’re working with astronauts from other countries? And I’m especially curious if it’s someone who’s from a country where the politics there might be a little bit complicated.
SCOTT KELLY: Yeah, so, you know, that’s what’s one of the great things about this program, is it’s an international program, and you get to pull on the strengths of people with different backgrounds than you have. There’s potential for conflict and challenges there, particularly like with the Russians, that we’re not always the friendliest with. But in space, you set all that aside, because you rely on those cosmonauts, or the cosmonauts rely on us for a lot of things, including our lives.
JOSH OLEJARZ: What do you think are the larger benefits of that kind of close collaboration?
SCOTT KELLY: There’s a lot. I mean, one reason we brought the Russians in this in the beginning was, after the Soviet Union went away, we thought it would benefit us by having their rocket scientists occupied with something peaceful, versus something nefarious, like a nuclear weapons program, or building missiles for our enemies.
But I think it also is an example that even when you are not the greatest of friends, you could work together for something you both believe in, feel strongly about, and has mutual benefits to all of us. And space is a great place to do that, because no one owns it. It’s a, you know, a common ground where peaceful scientific collaboration can occur, and it continues to, despite the conflict we have at times between our governments.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Is there anything specific about the space travel that helps you build those relationships? Or does it tend to happen pretty naturally once you’re training together?
SCOTT KELLY: How much you spend training with somebody is not always consistent. So, I’ve flown in space with people that I had very little personal experience with. One guy I’ve been with space with, I didn’t even know what he looked like until he arrived. So, building relationships with those people definitely happens in space. I mean, when you’re doing something that is challenging and in many ways—physically, emotionally, technically but also risky—is a way to bring people close together and appreciate the privilege we have in being able to represent our countries doing this.
JOSH OLEJARZ: You mentioned that this is kind of your office, and you can’t really leave this office for long periods of time. How do you deal with stress and burnout up there?
SCOTT KELLY: You know, exercise helps. Having a good sounding board at home helps, I think. But people handle that much differently. One of the reasons why I was probably asked to do this was because of how well I handle those kinds of things. You know, I had a six-month flight. I didn’t go crazy or cause major issues with interpersonal conflicts with the ground or my fellow crewmembers, which sometimes isn’t the case. So, I think in some ways I was, like, preselected to deal with the stress.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Are there any techniques you developed while you’re in space to help with that?
SCOTT KELLY: Like yoga? [LAUGHTER] It depends on what the stress was from. Right? Like, if I felt like I was being stressed because the ground was asking me to do something that I felt like it didn’t make sense, which sometimes is the case when you’re in space, I would always feel obligated to say, hey, we can do this better this way, or maybe we shouldn’t be doing this at all.
But in the end, I would always try to remind myself of the big picture, and the big picture was, hey, I’m a government employee. I’m going to be here for so much time. I’m going to be paid a certain amount. And whether I do this thing that makes no sense, or whether I do something that makes more sense to me, it doesn’t really matter. So long as it’s not a safety issue. So sometimes you just got to go with the flow.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Is it easy to forget how dangerous it is to be in space when you’re up there? Do you get used to that? Or are you constantly aware of it?
SCOTT KELLY: You’re always aware that you could always have an emergency that could kill you. But you’re not always thinking about it, because that wouldn’t be a good way to live. I’ve never been in combat, but it’s not like you’re being shot at, clearly. Right?
JOSH OLEJARZ: So are there performance reviews in space? How do you get judged when you’re up there?
SCOTT KELLY: You have those periodically through your career, but you have them after each space flight. It’s kind of like a peer review system almost. And then the management folks take those inputs and then make a recommendation for your future.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Does an astronaut ever get an F on this thing? Like, is it just straight A’s across the board?
SCOTT KELLY: Yeah, we have people come back from space, and they’re told, they’ll never fly in space again, because they, you know, screwed it up so bad, absolutely. But there’s all different levels. Like, some people will come back, and they’ll say, OK, well, you know, you did a good job, but we don’t see you as being the commander of the Space Station, so you’re probably never going to fly in space again, because we’ve got a lot of other guys like you that we can assign that haven’t flown yet. So, no, they don’t all get stellar reviews.
JOSH OLEJARZ: What’s the best feedback you ever got from another astronaut?
SCOTT KELLY: The one feedback I remember, my first long-duration flight, Cady Coleman that I was up there with said, you know, I need to be more open to the idea of engaging the public and what we’re doing up here, because you know, it’s their space program. They’re the taxpayers. They need to be involved. And at the time, I just looked at it as, you know, I’m really up here to do one job, and that is to complete the procedure that’s on my checklist, and then move on to the next thing. And that doesn’t, you know, involve voluntarily, you know, engaging the public, but I took her advice on my next flight, and she was absolutely right.
JOSH OLEJARZ: What surprised you about yourself? Like, what have you learned about yourself that you said, Oh, I didn’t realize I could do that?
SCOTT KELLY: Hm. You know, one thing I think that I’ve learned over my course of time on the Space Station is that I’m, and I’m reluctant to sound like I’m bragging or saying what I’m good at, but I did recognize that I have a really good way of prioritizing what’s important and what’s not. And putting a lot of focus and energy on the stuff that is, needs to get done, needs to get done right, and then not caring about the stuff that doesn’t matter.
And I’ve noticed a lot of my colleagues don’t have that same capability. They’re this Type A personality that they have to do everything perfect all the time, and you can’t do that for a year in space. So, I have a good balance of, you know, understanding when to work really, really hard, and when you don’t have to work hard at all.
JOSH OLEJARZ: How has your leadership style changed over time?
SCOTT KELLY: You know, I don’t know that it’s changed, but I’m much more aware of what it is. I think my leadership style is based on the situation. If there’s a fire on the Space Station, my leadership style is those of a tyrant: tell people what to do, and I don’t want any questions. Depending on the level of importance and what it is, my leadership style if more collaborative. Sometimes it’s, I delegate things to other people. I just think it depends on the situation.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Can you talk about that a bit more? I’m curious, just so much of space travel is so dangerous. Sometimes the stakes are just life and death. How does that affect how you make decisions?
SCOTT KELLY: Well, if the decision is, you know, when are we going to have Christmas dinner, like what time, I would say, hey, when do you guys want to have dinner? [LAUGHTER] But if the atmosphere is leaving the Space Station, I’d say, hey, we’ve got to close these hatches, or we’re all going to die. [LAUGHTER]
JOSH OLEJARZ: There’s not so much time there to build consensus.
SCOTT KELLY: Exactly.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Obviously, it’s incredibly competitive to become an astronaut. So how do you work toward a goal that so few people are going to accomplish?
SCOTT KELLY: I think you need to recognize that there are real people, and these are real jobs, and people get them, and even though the odds are against you, they’re as much against you as they are everybody else. Keep plugging away. I knew I wanted to do this, but I also recognized that I may never have the chance.
I would have been content with continuing my Navy career. My goal was eventually to be a CO of an aircraft carrier, and I would have been happy if I would have gotten to do that, too. So, I think it’s important for people that want to be astronauts to choose a career field that they want to be in because they’re interested in it, not because it’s going to help them become an astronaut. Because, like I said, odds are against them just as much as they’re against everybody else. If you don’t wind up being an astronaut, then having a job that you like is going to be very important.
JOSH OLEJARZ: What do you think is the biggest misconception about being an astronaut or the work?
SCOTT KELLY: Yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that, you know, the job of being an astronaut is flying in space. That’s a very small part of the job. When you’re out in space, you’re kind of working as an engineer in the space program for issues that are related to the astronauts and the safety of the astronauts and supporting the people that are flying in different capacities, training for missions, studying, public outreach and speaking. It’s a lot of different jobs, which is what makes it great. But— and I’ve spent a lot of time in space, but, you know, I was an astronaut for 20 years, and I spent a year and a half of is in space. Some guys are an astronaut for 10 or 15 years and might only spend a week in space. So, it’s not all about flying in space.
JOSH OLEJARZ: What are your favorite parts of being an astronaut, and what are your least favorite parts?
SCOTT KELLY: My favorite part is that it’s really, really hard, really challenging, and you’ve got to put a lot into it, and you need the help of many, many people on the ground and in space to do it. So, there’s a lot of teamwork, a lot of collaboration.
Now, having said that, the launch, the landing, spacewalk is fun after you’re done. Not always fun while you’re doing it. The view is great. Floating around is great, for the most part. It makes most things hard, but it’s fun. For me, the best part of it is the challenge of doing something incredibly complicated, incredibly risky, and then working hard at it and being successful.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Why is it so important for us to keep going to space, or to try to go to Mars?
SCOTT KELLY: Well, a number of reasons. When we do technically complicated things, we get benefits on Earth from doing that. The easy example is, the size of the iPhone in your pocket. Telecommunications technology. That stuff was invented for the space program.
You know, I think we’re naturally explorers. I think we need to explore over the horizon, whether that’s Mars or after Mars it will be somewhere else.
And then motivating kids. You know, right now I think we’re spending $5-6 billion a year on human space flight, if the only thing we got out of that, and it is not the only thing, but if the only thing we got out of it was the fact that every kid in the United States can say that they’re going to do their science, engineering, math homework because they want to be an astronaut someday, if that was the only reason, then that’s worth the $5 or $6 billion a year, because a lot of those kids won’t become astronauts. But they’re going to become something else. They’re going to become the important scientist and an engineer and work in industries that grow our economy and that are critical.
JOSH OLEJARZ: And there a lot of private companies now that are doing commercial space flight, too, or preparing for commercial space flight. There’s Space X and Blue Origin and others. I’m wondering if you think that the point of going to space changes if commercial companies are involved.
SCOTT KELLY: I think these commercial guys are great, and it gives NASA the extra bandwidth if they can turn, like as an example, turn low Earth orbit access and space flight low Earth orbit over to private companies, or public companies, whatever you want to, whatever kind they are, that allows NASA to go do other things that are more outrageous, risky, and exploration based.
JOSH OLEJARZ: As opposed to trying to colonize Mars, for example, is there something different about space if space tourism is the point?
SCOTT KELLY: Well, I think space tourism would be a great thing, and I think we’ll have that eventually. You know, it’s not for everybody, but I think a lot of people would enjoy it. You know, having access to low Earth orbit, you know, you could maybe make a business case for that. I don’t know. I’m not a business guy, but right now, clearly, it’s very expensive to get there and work there, but, you know, it’s not always going to be.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Once it gets cheaper, I’ll one of the first to sign up.
SCOTT KELLY: Yeah, I’ll be right behind you.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Why did you retire when you did?
SCOTT KELLY: I had a lot of other opportunities, you know. Yeah, I’d flown in space four times, probably could have flown again, but it would have probably been 5 to 10 years. I would have been 60 years old. If you’re ever going to do anything else in your life, there’s a time to do that, and I think as an astronaut, I was over 50, I’d had some incredible experiences, had a lot of opportunity after this flight, it just made sense.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Well, just one more question that I can’t resist asking. Are you more of a Star Trek fan or a Star Wars fan?
SCOTT KELLY: I like them both. But which one am I more of a fan of? I like the light saber. [LAUGHTER] Both of them had pretty good artificial gravity. So, they’re pretty similar in that respect.
JOSH OLEJARZ: Well, Scott, Captain Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today.
SCOTT KELLY: Well, thank you.
SARAH GREEN CARMICHAEL: That’s Scott Kelly. He worked as an astronaut for NASA for two decades. His memoir is Endurance: A Year in Space, a Lifetime of Discovery. Kelly was interviewed by HBR Assistant Editor Josh Olejarz.
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Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. I’m Sarah Green Carmichael.