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When You’re Responsible for Eldercare
Caring for sick or elderly family members is mostly women’s work.
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Caring for sick or elderly family members is still mostly women’s work, according to research. The emotional labor and unpredictability of this work takes a heavy toll on caregivers; it impacts our wellbeing, finances, and careers. And while companies have gotten better about acknowledging and accommodating childcare, many could offer more support and flexibility to their employees taking care of adults.
We talk with Anne Bardoel about what the research says about women and eldercare. She’s been through it herself, and she offers strategies to cope with the negative effects like exhaustion, isolation, and depression. She also gives advice to employees and managers on how to start conversations about caregiving commitments. Then, we hear from a woman who was thrust into caring for her parents and in-laws a lot sooner than she expected.
Guest:
Anne Bardoel is a professor at Swinburne Business School.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work, from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.
NICOLE TORRES: I’m Nicole Torres.
AMY GALLO: And I’m Amy Gallo. At some point in our careers, most of us will be taking care of another adult. A parent with Parkinson’s. A spouse going through chemotherapy. A friend who’s had a stroke. Sometimes we see the need for eldercare coming, and can plan for it; sometimes people need us suddenly, and we can’t.
AMY BERNSTEIN: There are often a lot of difficult conversations and decisions and responsibilities involved. It’s like having another job. The extra work takes a heavy toll, including at the job we get paid to do. Which is why we’re talking about how to cope with eldercare, both when you’re the caregiver, or when someone on your team is.
NICOLE TORRES: Our guest expert is Anne Bardoel. She’s a professor at Swinburne Business School, in Melbourne. I wasn’t able to join the interview, so the Amys will take it from here.
AMY GALLO: Hi Anne. This is Amy Gallo.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’m Amy Bernstein. So, we’re making it easy for you.
ANNE BARDOEL: Oh, thank you.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Two interviewers named Amy.
ANNE BARDOEL: I cannot forget your name.
AMY GALLO: That’s right.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, you can.
AMY GALLO: One of us will answer.
ANNE BARDOEL: Yes.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Let’s start with how you got into this field. What led you to start doing research on eldercare?
ANNE BARDOEL: Well, I’d always been interested in looking at work life, work-family issues. So, I had that background, but it was actually a personal reason which made me become interested in looking at the issue of care. And it started actually on a Friday night, and I received a phone call to say that my father had died of a massive heart attack. And all the sudden I was in a situation where I was responsible to care for my mother, who was suffering from Alzheimer’s, but also my brother, who is autistic and can’t live independently. He’d always lived with my family, my parents. And so in one moment I became responsible for care of two people who are very important in my life, my mother and my brother.
AMY GALLO: And how did you carry that into the research? What questions were you really looking to answer for yourself and for others in this research?
ANNE BARDOEL: Well, one of the things that became apparent to me was there wasn’t — I’m not saying there was no research looking at the issue of care and care of dependents — but there wasn’t a lot of research looking at how you as a carer, experience this situation, how it’s linked to issues such as depression, which was something that I also experienced. One, because of the loss of a much loved father, but also seeing my mother, who was a high-school English teacher declining into the, into the, into the depths of Alzheimer’s. So, I wanted to know what’s out there looking at this issue of care. And there had been some research looking at the issue of the sandwich generation, so somebody who had dependent children, but was also responsible for the care of a parent. But there hadn’t been much looking at well, what about if it’s the care of somebody who’s frail, or who’s sick with a disease such as Alzheimer’s, or you’re looking after a dependent family member who’s an adult, such as my brother. There wasn’t a lot of research looking at that. So, that’s really what sparked my interest.
AMY GALLO: Got it.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, how did caring for your mother and your brother affect your career?
ANNE BARDOEL: It was interesting, because all of a sudden you are faced with just a whole lot of practicalities of having to cope, one, cope with being put into that intensive care world and I didn’t have any other siblings who could help me. And I can remember just coincidently at the same time, I was applying for a professorial position at another university. And then I received the phone call on the Friday night, and I was meant to actually be going to an interview the following week. And I can remember sort of speaking to the head of department, who said, well we really want someone who can hit the ground running and be totally focused on what they’re doing. And I remember just thinking, there’s absolutely no way I can hit the ground running; I’m not in a position to do that. So, I actually withdrew from that particular position, which I think I probably had a very good chance of getting. And I have to say, for about the next 12 months my research career really suffered. I mean it was just going through all the practicalities. There’s the financial, there’s the medical, there was organizing accommodation for, of assisted living for my brother. I just, I didn’t have the energy to be like, to do anything other than do my normal day’s work, plus the other day, the other job, if you like, was looking after two dependent adults.
AMY GALLO: Right.
ANNE BARDOEL: Now, unfortunately my mother passed away several years ago. So, now I don’t have two people, but I still have my brother, and he has mental health issues, as well as being autistic. So, for example, last week I got a phone call to say, look, we need, can you come around? Peter’s having some issues. And basically I have to drop everything. One thing that’s a positive about working in academia is you tend to have a fair bit of flexibility. So, I was able to do that. But I think it would be very difficult in a more, a job that has less flexibility to be able to drop everything and go and provide that type of assistance.
AMY GALLO: And is this what you find in your research, that women who, or people who are responsible for caring for adult family members, their careers suffer as a result necessarily?
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah, look, there certainly is some evidence. I know that Carers Australia, which is nonprofit organization, has gathered a number of statistics. And what they find is that particularly if you’re caring for a child with a disability and that child, that person can be an adult as well, or if you’re caring for a partner that often the situation is that the person — and it’s predominately women who are responsible for care — has to leave the workforce. Not always, but that’s one of the issues that we’ve actually, certainly Carers Australia has actually documented.
AMY GALLO: Mm. You mentioned that it’s mostly women. I’m curious if your research or other’s research has indicated why that is. Why does this responsibility most often fall to women?
ANNE BARDOEL: Well, I think it comes down to the stuff that I know you both would be aware of, in terms of gender-norms stereotypes, that women are generally the family carers. And, I mean, I can only speak for the Australian results, but I’m sure they’d be replicated in the United States and also Europe, that when we looked at who was actually doing the care, in the majority, well up into the 90% of the time, it’s the woman in the family situation who is responsible for that care. When it’s not, it’s the male partner taking care of their spouse.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, has that — I mean, I know that’s been true for many, many years, but are you seeing any sign of change? I mean, we know that fathers are taking more of a hand in childrearing, for example. Are we seeing any greater contribution from men in eldercare?
ANNE BARDOEL: Um, look, the results from the Australian survey that I was analyzing — and this was based on the HILDA Survey, which is a very large dataset that we have here — is basically no. I mean, you would hope so, and certainly men are taking more responsibility in terms of childcare. We’re not seeing it at the eldercare level yet. And in the Australian context, we also find a high percentage of women already working part time. So, in that sense, there’s more availability to provide care. In fact, Australia has one of the highest percentages of women working in the part-time workforce. I think, in terms of the OECD, only second to the Netherlands. So, it’s probably a slightly different dynamic than what you find in the United States. Even when I’ve looked at some of the international studies, they still mirror the fact that women are more likely to provide the care, particularly in relation to eldercare.
AMY GALLO: You talked about the impact for you personally on your career. It’s hard to imagine that having two fulltime jobs, essentially, wouldn’t have an impact on your primary job. What does your research show about what the impact is?
ANNE BARDOEL: Look, some of the qualitative research that we started to do — and I have to be upfront, we haven’t finished it — but what it’s actually showing is what has been referred to as compassion fatigue. And I certainly know that I sometimes experience that. I sort of feel can’t someone just look after me for a while? Actually, what we’re drawing out is a distinction between what’s the impact of different types of care relationships and depression. And there’s several things that we found, and that is, women who care for their partners or adult children tend to suffer from more depression, or higher levels of depression, I should say, than women who look after their own parents. And one of the things that I think this points to is the fact that women who are looking after a partner, and I know this occurred with my own father, looking after my mother, it often becomes quite isolating. It’s difficult to take out your spouse who has advanced Alzheimer’s to social situations. One, because it can be quite confusing for the spouse who has a dementia-related disease. And it can be sometimes, I know my father would sometimes feel embarrassed and things like this, because of how mom was. And the same with an adult child.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean you mentioned compassion fatigue. And in a previous episode about working motherhood, we talked about how caring for young children can be additive to your career because it actually makes you more empathetic to the people you work with. And it’s — from what I hear from what you’re saying, really this sort of caring for an adult, especially in an aging parent, or a sick brother for example, is really just a draw on your resources. It’s not quite additive to your work.
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah. It’s not additive I think in terms of how you’re describing with children. I mean, I think one of the things that I learned, which I certainly could apply in the workplace, is the, the skill if you’d like, of being patient. I don’t think I was a particular patient person before I had children, but I certainly learned how to be patient because you’d go nuts if you didn’t.
AMY GALLO: Indeed.
ANNE BARDOEL: I think there is something that you transfer from looking after an elderly parent. I think I’m more empathetic now than I’ve probably ever been, have been to people with different needs. And I think recognizing that often, in one sense you can talk about somebody’s kids with them at work. We don’t often have a conversation about elderly parents and they’re sick and they’re old, or brothers who have autism or whatever. So, I’ve now realized that people come to work with all sorts of things that you don’t know about them. And I think that’s probably the transfer that you actually get.
AMY GALLO: Right.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, caring for a parent isn’t confined to women in their middle age; it can happen earlier. With younger women who are caring for their elders, often they’re in a phase of their career where they’ve been identified as high potentials, and they’re really trying to accelerate their careers. Do you have any thoughts about how this is playing out? Have you seen anything?
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah. Look, it becomes really difficult. That’s the reality. If you are thrust into a caring role, and you’re at that point in your career, in your, from late 30s to your early 50s, and you’re in that situation where often you’re established, you might be over the early childrearing stage, and all of a sudden you’ve got, opportunities are opening up and then you find yourself having to care for an elderly relative. You can’t say to an elderly relative, I’m not going to look after you. It’s something that you have to do. And even if you’re in my situation, with my mother she was in a care facility, which was a fantastic facility. But I would still visit her every day, and I was still responsible for her finances and taking her to a specialist, doctor’s appointments, et cetera, et cetera. There is no easy — you can’t, you can’t subcontract that work out. It’s still done by you.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what advice would you offer to, particularly to a younger woman facing this challenge?
ANNE BARDOEL: Look, a number of things. One thing I would say, and it’s something I didn’t do and I always wished I had, is start having a conversation with your parents about what they want, if in the future things, you know, they do need some more assistance with their care. I never did that. And I was suddenly thrust into a situation where I had to provide that care. The other thing I’d realize — and this sort of relates to the resilience research — for most of us, that intensive care role, at the maximum goes about two years, or one year. So, in one sense, one recommendation I would have is sometimes we just accept the situation we’re in, and that makes it a bit easier. I mean I also had support from my husband. He was great. But it was still my mother that I was looking after, and she in one sense wanted me; she didn’t want anyone else. So, I’m actually glad that I did pull back from my career for a while. I mean, I still managed to stay in it, but I’m glad because I did have that time with my mother. Every now and again there would be a little time when my mother was there; it might only be for half a minute or a minute, but it was lovely to see it when she did come back out of the mist that’s Alzheimer’s.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. You, it also seems — you’re talking about your husband providing support. It also seems like a piece of advice would be to gather support where you, emotional support if not logistical support.
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah that, and that’s a really good point, Amy. I did have, I had several friends who were really, really supportive who sometimes I’d just talk to and I suppose have a little bit of a cry to. I mean, I know with mom at the end, when she was very, very ill, I’d come out from seeing her, and I’d just sit in the car and cry, because it was, you know, this highly intelligent woman being reduced to nothing. And I did have some friends that I would talk to about that and so, I think your point about gathering those people who can give you that support, it’s a really important part of it as well. And being able to share that, but I seemed to be in my friendship group the first person who went through looking after an elderly relative. And now, those friends are actually going through it — one is in particular — going through it themselves, and I’m providing her that support, which she provided me.
AMY GALLO: I can’t help but think that if you were in the situation of going out on maternity leave, for example, that people would have been quite supportive. Most workplaces expect that women may likely bear some childcaring responsibility at some point. But it seems like workplaces aren’t making the assumption that women are going to have these responsibilities and certainly aren’t preparing for those, these cases. Why is that?
ANNE BARDOEL: Look, I agree. Workplaces are not, it’s not on their, it’s not on their horizon in many cases. Both the United States and Australia have an aging population. That demographic is not going to go away. So, we’re going to find increasingly, people are coming, going to be coming to work, and they’re going to have these responsibilities of eldercare and dependent care, of frail and ill relatives, and friends for that matter. So, it’s something that we need to tackle. One of the top things that people need is often that as-needs, or emergency care, in the sense that, you know, if I really need to, can I take the time off? Because often, what you find yourself in is a situation where it’s unpredictable. You start the day off, and you don’t know that you’re going to need to provide that person with care. So, I take the example last week with my brother: I didn’t know in the morning that I was going to have to go out and see him. So, it’s that as-needs care. And if you have an organization that has a culture which is basically supportive of the whole employee, bringing themselves to work, you’ll get that. And we find that small businesses are often actually better, because your boss knows you and knows that your mother’s sick, or knows that your father’s sick, or whatever it be, and will give you that care.
AMY GALLO: I’m curious about that conversation with an employer. So, when should we be having these conversations, because for you, for example, it was a Friday night; it happened suddenly. Do you wish you had talked with people at work prior to that?
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah, it’s an interesting one. And I’ve thought about this. I don’t, I actually don’t know the answer to it. I think in one sense what would be easier for employees is if workplaces recognize this in their own discourse that they promote to the employees. So, that it’s OK to have that conversation, that care is not just about young children, but it’s also can be in a broader sense, and I think that would have made it easier for me to have that conversation. And I know, for example, I’m in a new job now, and I can remember my manager saying, if any of you ever have any issues family related, I’m always happy to provide you flexibility. You know, make it known that you do recognize people come to work with other responsibilities outside of work. And that can open up the conversation as well.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Also, if you are, as a manager, aware that someone is going through this sort of situation, making it clear that you can, you can be flexible and help them accommodate the needs of their parents, whoever they’re caring for, actually sends a signal to the whole organization.
AMY GALLO: Right. Because everyone knows you did it with that one person, and that opens the door.
ANNE BARDOEL: Absolutely.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. I mean, it’s tricky, because you don’t talk about people’s personal situations.
AMY GALLO: Sure. But information gets around.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, that’s the kind of information you hope would get around.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and I think what your manager said to you, Anne, I’m not remembering ever having a boss who said that. Who said, if you have family demands that you, that require flexibility, please talk to me about it. I mean, I’ve gone on to request that, but I’m not sure anyone’s ever pre-emptively said it.
ANNE BARDOEL: Well, I can honestly say, it’s the first time in my work career that anyone’s actually said that in an open forum. And it makes — I mean she’s a fabulous manager — and it makes a lot of difference. And it’s not, it’s that classic thing. It’s not only if you need it yourself at the time, but you also feel better about the place that you work, that it, is going to support other people as well.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
ANNE BARDOEL: And the other thing I will say is often the flexibility is needed for a relatively short time, in the sense it’s, for me it was actually getting my head about how I’d organize things. So, it was immediate things that I needed to organize. And once I’d got everything in a more settled pattern, and under a routine, I didn’t actually need the flexibility to continue. So, that’s the other thing that I would say from an employer/ manager point of view. Often it’s something, it’s the flexibility in the short term. It’s not necessarily going to go on forever.
AMY GALLO: Right. And I’ve heard, that’s what I’ve heard other people say as well that it’s, sometimes it’s a quite small accommodation. Someone needs to leave early on Friday to drive to see where their parents, to where their parents live, and they need to do that once a month. It’s not a completely reworking of the entire schedule.
ANNE BARDOEL: Yeah, exactly. And so, that might be something that you put in place. In the immediate term it might mean somebody needs a week off work, but often generally speaking, it’s about those small things that you can actually do for somebody. And we know from the research that when you give people that sort of flexibility, or that sort of support, they pay you back in terms of being more engaged and more committed to the workplace.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. You mentioned that you prioritized family, which meant pulling back a bit from your career. But you mentioned earlier that you also stayed involved. And I’m curious how you did that and whether that’s something you would tell people who are moving to part time or requesting these flexible arrangements, whether that’s something you’d advise?
ANNE BARDOEL: No, I didn’t completely pull out, and I was actually glad to have work, as well. Even though it was difficult, it was an escape at one level from everything else that was going on. And there’s a lot about academic work which is, you know, it’s interesting and it’s rewarding. So, I think I was really lucky that the job itself has a fair degree of flexibility, and I could actually still keep in touch with work and at least taking classes and things like that, which psychologically, also was a form of support as well. It was difficult to keep the two going, but it also was a help that I did have work.
AMY GALLO: Right. And that seems to connect or to what you were saying earlier also, about recognizing that this is temporary. So, completely leaving a job or a career and assuming that’s all behind you would be a mistake because this is not a permanent status.
ANNE BARDOEL: No. And I certainly wouldn’t recommend somebody, if you’re enjoying your job, I wouldn’t recommend anyone to opt out of the job at all. Try and make arrangements so that you can actually have some flexibility in that short term that you’re going to need. And you’re also going to need it because there’s an adjustment period for you as well. I found it terribly confronting looking after my mother for that initial period because my father had actually often hidden how bad my mother — bad health wise I’m talking about — that mom was and it wasn’t until I realized just how unwell she was, how much the dementia was affecting her, that and then you sort of grieve again for the loss of who you think your parent is. So, it’s a difficult one. It really is.
AMY GALLO: Yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, some women aren’t going to be to do what you did. Some women are going to have to pull back from their careers either totally, or for the most part to care for their parents. For some women this is going to mean giving up professional dreams, professional aspirations. How would you advise them to deal with this kind of disappointment? They sacrifice, and that is going to be difficult. What would you say to them?
ANNE BARDOEL: Wow. It’s a really difficult one. Look, I recognize that I was lucky that I could still keep in the workforce at one level while I was going through this. But not everyone’s going to be in that situation. That’s for sure. That you’re not necessarily going to have a job that can provide you with that flexibility. And it might be that you need — I mean first of all, I’d go through trying to see if you can negotiate flexible work arrangements, et cetera, with your workplace. But if that’s not possible and you have to actually withdrawal from the workforce, it’s going to be a really difficult thing for you. What I would say is at one level I didn’t regret looking after my mother. I don’t regret looking after my brother. I think if I hadn’t, that would have left me with regret, if that makes sense. But I would be trying to — I think what we need to do is we need to push back with organizations and say, look, this is what I need. That it would be an end result if you like, of totally opting out of the workplace. I’d be opting for the position of pushing back and saying, I need this. I’ve been a good employee. I need this for now. Can you give it to me? In terms of coping with having to opt out, I think that’s a really difficult one. It’s not, it will not be easy at all.
AMY GALLO: I’m finding this conversation incredibly helpful and my husband and I have both have parents who are divorced and remarried. So, we actually have seven parents between the two of us. In some ways I feel this looming future of responsibility in front of us, and it’s helpful to start to think about what is that going to mean for us mentally, but also career wise. And it feels like an unknown. But it’s helpful to start thinking about it.
ANNE BARDOEL: One thing having gone through it: start thinking about it earlier than when you’re actually confronted with it. I had to sort of face it all of a sudden. So, having a conversation with those family members now, I think is important. There is also just practicalities in terms of sorting out powers of attorney and financial arrangements, and how you’re going to deal with your other siblings. And what actual help is out there? Do you want your family member to go in some form of assisted living? So, there’s all various types of care arrangements too. Looking into those things and having a consideration of those things, I think is actually really important.
AMY GALLO: I’ve got a lot of work to do. [LAUGHTER]
AMY BERNSTEIN: I think if there’s one thing we can take away from this is that this is going to come, and you have to be prepared emotionally. You have to plan. You have to think about the contingencies and having the conversations upfront with your family members, with the rest of the family and within your organization, with your manager, with your team, to get a common understanding, is helpful. It doesn’t make it easy. But it makes it a little easier.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well I think even thinking about who in your organization has gone through this and what worked for them. I mean, I can think of people that we’ve worked with, Amy, here that have, had situations like this. Right now it’s making me think, I should go talk to those people, you know, find out what worked for them. Also see if we could offer some more support.
ANNE BARDOEL: Look, I think that’s an excellent, you know, opening up the conversations I think is actually important. And I found that since I’ve been in this situation, I’ve had more of these conversations. It’s amazing, it’s amazing how many people are going through different types of care arrangements. One of my other colleagues has a severely disabled child, and I started talking to him about that, not recognizing all the issues that he faces with looking after this child. And this child now is 17, and in the Australian context you don’t get, start not getting as much support from the school environment and the government. So, he’s facing that. So, but I think just having the conversation in one sense is a help to him. Because otherwise it’s sort of like, you feel alone. You feel isolated about these things.
AMY GALLO: Right. Well Anne, we’re out of time, but thank you so much for sharing your experience and your research. It’s been really helpful.
ANNE BARDOEL: Oh, look, it’s been great to talk to both of you. Thank you so much. And thank you for putting this topic on the agenda. I don’t think it’s going to go away.
NICOLE TORRES: We’ve touched upon how challenging it is to be looking after both children and adults while having a day job. A decade ago, and fairly early in her career, a listener named Laura was thrust into eldercare, on top of childcare. And she’s had to figure out how to manage all that.
LAURA: So, we don’t have a particularly special or unique family situation, and it’s not tragic in any way. It’s just normal and still challenging.
NICOLE TORRES: While Laura was in Boston, for business, she came by our studio to talk with our producer, Amanda Kersey. Laura’s now in her mid-40s and self-employed as an executive coach. Her husband is a doctor. Their daughter’s 14. Their son’s 12. And she’s thankful that the kids have gotten to grow up with both sets of grandparents around.
LAURA: And, at the same time, living, aging grandparents. Both sets are local, which helps a lot, although that was something by design, because my parents were in Texas for a long time, and it was hard when I was working, my kids were babies, and my parents were starting to have health problems, and I was having to commute and deal with it. So, they eventually came to us, which has still been challenging, but certainly better than getting on airplanes and dealing with babysitters and stuff like that.
AMANDA KERSEY: Yes, I imagine. [LAUGHTER] What are the sorts of health problems that your parents are dealing with?
LAURA: Again, nothing dramatic. The usual kind of, parts not working the same way [LAUGHTER] as you age. And my father has had a couple of pretty serious cardiac interventions; he’s on the backside of those now. But you’re never quite the same in your mid-70s when you’ve had valve replacements and all of that kind of stuff. You know, everybody’s on every kind of blood pressure med and just all these different medicines they have to take and keep track of. One grandparent was recently diagnosed with rheumatism, and that’s kind of a tricky new territory that we’re in with that. So, yeah, again, nothing acute, but a lot of not-acute stuff going on.
AMANDA KERSEY: Mhm. How was caring for them different when they were living far from you than it is now when they live close to you?
LAURA: So, when — well, first of all, they were 10 years younger, so the mental acuity was better. At the same time, the health issues then were much more acute. That was intense when they were far away and needed a lot. Now the difference is that they’re close and in some ways healthier, even though they’re older, they’re more stable. But it’s constant. So, like, when they lived in Texas, there would be these spikes, where an entire week of my life would blow up and I’d be there dealing with that, and I’d come home and wouldn’t think about it again for a month or something like that or more. And now it’s like, every, some part of every week is invaded at differing levels of intensity with something that’s going on. And it’s not always healthcare related. Like, my son had a little ceremony at school, and I invited them to come, and it was the day before, and I started getting all these frantic texts during a client meeting: where are you, we’re here, there’s nothing happening, the chapel’s empty. And then I have to excuse myself from the client meeting —
AMANDA KERSEY: They had the wrong day.
LAURA: They had the wrong day, just straight up the wrong day. So, now it’s like, shots on goal: text reminder, email reminder, phone call reminder. Not because it’s so essential to have them there, necessarily. I know they want to be there. But more because I want to avoid a situation where they’re frustrated because they got it wrong. And, you know, that happens to everybody, but I’m managing a lot of logistics and memory stuff that I didn’t have to 10 years ago. And it’s interesting, because my mental bandwidth as a working mom, like, 10 years ago, it was — so, 10 years ago, my kids would have been 4 and 2 — like, all I could think about, I’d be at work trying to focus on work, and I’d be thinking, oh, I hope this doesn’t happen, oh, I hope that doesn’t happen, oh, should have done this, should have done that, I forgot to tell the nanny this. And now I, I mean, I think about my kids, but they’re pretty self-sufficient, so kind of, I know they’re going to find me one way or the other; they’re so much more technologically savvy than I am. And it’s my sets of parents that are kind of invading the day in terms of a caregiver thread of thinking and that background worry that’s kind of always going on. Less on my kids now, more on the elders in the family. Does that make sense, that shift?
AMANDA KERSEY: Yeah.
LAURA: It’s weird. It’s not something I really would have predicted. It makes sense, if you think about it.
AMANDA KERSEY: Mhm.
LAURA: Yeah.
AMANDA KERSEY: So, take me though a day or a week or how your parents or your in-laws might invade or intervene in your work life. What does that look like for you?
LAURA: So, fortunately, it’s not frequent, but that’s the worry, right, that the frequency will go up. So, part of the mental scramble that I’m doing all the time is, what’s my model for how I’m going to deal with this the next time, if it’s worse or different or whatever. So, let me separate the two sets of parents, if I could, because they’re different. They’re kind of care models are different. So, my parents, I think, are less healthy in most ways than my in-laws, but they’re quite well resourced. So, actually, our old nanny for my children works fulltime for my parents. And my sisters and I arranged that. So, we don’t have to pay for it, thank goodness, because that would be prohibitive. And so I’m lucky there because I can either coordinate through my parents, or I can go through her. And I’ll do that sometimes. I’ll text her or call her and say, what’s the vibe there today, do I need to stop by? And she’ll be like, no, no, everybody’s great, everybody’s happy. Or she’ll say, oh, your mom seems a little depressed today, she hasn’t gotten out of bed. And then I’ll just swing by with one of the grandkids in the afternoon or something like that. So, they have a pretty good setup. But we were really intentional about that, and we were lucky, I think. My in-laws are relatively healthier, but they don’t have such a good setup; so when stuff goes wrong with them, then you got to be a little more hands on.
AMANDA KERSEY: Yep.
LAURA: Of course a week like this, where I’m here, this is a harder deal. So, I imagine many women can reflect on that feeling of getting on a plane or a train and into a car and just saying a little prayer, of whatever sort they prefer, a little bargain with the universe, just to let that four days your gone or three days or five days or whatever it is be, like, quiet and calm and no major events.
AMANDA KERSEY: Yeah.
LAURA: And I bet a lot of people live like that. [LAUGHTER]
AMANDA KERSEY: Yeah, I think so. I live like that. So, how does traveling with the worry that something might go wrong at home, somebody might have a health crisis or there might be a need the babysitter or somebody else can’t fill — what is it like to travel with that anxiety?
LAURA: Well, it’s stressful, obviously. I’m sure it takes a toll emotionally that I’m not completely alert to. It must undermine focus at times, although I, like most working moms, have become a professional compartmentalizer. But what is the hidden cost of that emotional management? That’s what it feels like: I feel like I’m managing my emotions and I’m coaching myself. I’m like, OK, all right, so I’ve got — here’s how the kids are covered; I’ve checked in with Anna, who takes care of my parents; pretty sure the in-laws are set up at my sister-in-law’s. You know, like, I just can’t do anything without constantly running through my checklists. I imagine that it would feel different if I didn’t need all of those checklists. It’s not that I want to get rid of them, let me be clear [LAUGHTER].
AMANDA KERSEY: Right.
LAURA: That’s not the alternative. Because that’s what gives you a rich life. But I would bet you it takes a toll in ways that I don’t fully understand or appreciate.
AMANDA KERSEY: When do you think you started taking care of your parents or your in-laws in some way?
LAURA: Well…
AMANDA KERSEY: Was there a first incident?
LAURA: Yeah, yeah, there was. And that was, gosh, I’m trying to think. So, my son would have been 2, and my mother had a stroke. It was a really severe one. And I remember I was in the office. And I called my boss, and I said, my mother had a stroke and I have to immediately go to Texas and help my dad. And we just kind of shut down some pieces of work I was doing; we had the luxury of doing that at the time.
AMANDA KERSEY: And at that point, you weren’t working for yourself.
LAURA: I was not working for myself. This is important.
AMANDA KERSEY: And how old were you?
LAURA: 34. Yeah, 34, with a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. And I was about 11 years into a great job that I loved, absolutely loved, like, would have continued indefinitely, for sure. And so then I came back, and my mother really had a miraculous recovery, to credit and commitment. But that all is part of the backstory of them eventually coming out here once she had recovered. It’s also the backstory of why I eventually left a consulting firm model and went into business for myself, because I needed more flexibility. And I can’t put all of that on, you know, the kind of eldercare part of the story. What was also happening is that I was traveling a lot for work, and my children were very young, and it was really hard on them. And hard on me, and hard on my husband. And so I just felt like from above and below I was getting these signals that this was not a model that was going to be sustainable. I was lucky enough to have the kind of training that I could, I can work for myself. I can kind of, not perfectly, but dial it up, dial it down, travel more, travel less. So, that’s actually worked out very well. But I would have had a very different career, I believe, had I stayed.
AMANDA KERSEY: What do you think it would have been like?
LAURA: I think I would be a partner at a big consulting firm, and I would be making probably three or four times what I make now. Would I make that tradeoff in retrospect? I don’t think so. But is an opportunity cost of flexibility? You bet it is.
AMANDA KERSEY: Do you think your parents or your in-laws are aware of the opportunity costs that you’ve had to help them and to care for them?
LAURA: No, I don’t think so. That got packaged as a mom choice.
AMANDA KERSEY: And was that your decision to package it like that?
LAURA: Yes. Yeah. It was dominantly a mom choice, like, 70/30, but I would be lying if I said they weren’t also in the back of my mind as I was trying to figure out what to do with my career that would allow me to be more flexible when the proverbial poo was hitting the fan, which during that period, was like my early 30s, it was just very intense, with a lot of — it’s actually much calmer now, interestingly, even though they’re older. We just had a lot of bad stuff happening, and with little kids, and with trying to work.
AMANDA KERSEY: Did you want to protect your parents and your in-laws from knowing how they were affecting you?
LAURA: I think so. And I know my parents would be really frustrated with me, if they thought I was holding back in any way on their behalf. I mean, they’d be almost angry, you know, like, really, we pumped all of this money into you, education wise, and all of this love and support, and then you’re cutting corners for us, don’t do that. So, which is probably why I don’t talk about the tradeoffs that I make; I just sort of make them and keep it quiet.
AMANDA KERSEY: How are you adjusting your career now or making decisions about your professional future, taking your parents and your in-laws into consideration?
LAURA: So, for me, I would say, indirectly. And what I mean by that is, I’m enjoying what I’m doing now, so it’s not necessarily that them being a factor is a direct influencer over my decision. But I’m also doing what I do now because it’s convenient to being responsive to stuff that happens, and I can envision a change, like, working more or traveling more or differently or changing my home base or something like that, in a world where I’m not having to think about their care.
AMANDA KERSEY: Like, would you move?
LAURA: I might!
AMANDA KERSEY: Can you move?
LAURA: I might!
AMANDA KERSEY: Mhm. Because at this point you have so many people [LAUGHTER] circling around you —
LAURA: Oh, yeah, I have created this entire constellation of people. Let’s say — OK, let’s play out a scenario. Let’s say my kids go to college. I mean, they’re gonna. [LAUGHTER]
AMANDA KERSEY: Right.
LAURA: They better. So, they’re gone. Let say that there are no more grandparents.
AMANDA KERSEY: Right. That’s certainly a possibility.
LAURA: Yeah. I mean, it’s inevitable. It’s not just a possibility; it is the possibility. We of course don’t know the timing. We don’t know how it’s all going to play out. We don’t know the emotional impact it will have. But could I imagine a world where my kids are out of the house and I don’t have all of these ties and responsibilities? Would I move somewhere else? I might. I have a couple of candidates in mind, city wise, that I would love to have, sort of, life experience there. But that’s not in the cards right now; that’s just not possible.
AMANDA KERSEY: I think a lot of women plan their professional lives around having children, for example, and the expectations to care for children. But did you expect to have these adult caregiving responsibilities —
LAURA: No, I never thought about it.
AMANDA KERSEY: Before you were 34 —
LAURA: Yeah, 34 years old, just suddenly dealing with that stuff in a very acute way was hard. And I had no mental model of it; that’s kind of your point, right? You start to develop a mental model for the mothering part, but there’s more discourse about it, so that helps. The thing about the eldercare discussion is that it’s not as obvious. People don’t talk about it; they don’t disclose the same way if they’re leaving to deal with a sick parent the way they’re like, I’m going to my son’s soccer game — that’s, like, a discussable thing. The other stuff isn’t necessarily or just isn’t; I don’t know why. I don’t hear people talking about it that much. Do you?
AMANDA KERSEY: I, I hear, I wonder — I do. And I wonder if it’s because I’m somewhat open about that my mom is sick and that I have caregiving responsibilities and, like, restrictions, so it may be that —
LAURA: Maybe people open up to you a little bit more.
AMANDA KERSEY: It could be. Because I am aware of certain people’s caregiving, eldercare, responsibilities. But that may be just because I put it out there.
LAURA: Yeah. So, yeah, so the whole — the expectation and the really just the mental model of what it’s going to look like and feel like and when it’s going to happen was that on my radar screen at all, the way when I got pregnant, I was like, all right, we’re on the path. Like, I had this whole vision in my mind of what that was going to be like, which of course none of it was, but at least I had a plan. But the eldercare stuff, I felt like came like a lightning bolt out of the sky, and there weren’t even clouds, and suddenly I felt like I grew up really fast.
AMANDA KERSEY: Mhm. Have there been positive things for you that have come from taking on this eldercare responsibility?
LAURA: Mm.
AMANDA KERSEY: And if there’s not, it’s OK.
LAURA: They’re not tangible, right. So, more connectedness and time with my parents that I otherwise might have not have taken. Like, I barely saw them in my 20s. You know, I was gone. I lived in Boston and was traveling all the time for work, and I was just gone. So then, that got kind of pulled back down to earth in a way that is probably a good thing in the long run for my relationship with them and time with them. I think you develop empathy when you’re dealing with someone you love’s health constraints and trauma and fear and sadness and all of that. I don’t know, it kind of seasons you as a person. So, and I do consider those benefits. And I do, in the type of work that I do, where I’m coaching people around their leadership development but also their communication and their interpersonal skills and basic humanity, being a seasoned person and having a lot of empathy is a really handy thing [LAUGHTER]. So, I do think it’s benefited me, but intangibly.
AMANDA KERSEY: Mhm. Do you think of yourself as a caregiver?
LAURA: I think of myself as a care coordinator. I think of myself as a care CEO. So, I’m not down there in the trenches, for better or for worse, that’s just not the model that I use. I’m not the most remote CEO. I’m not the care chairman, where I’m truly outsourcing — I can jump in and be hands on. But I don’t think of myself as a caregiver. I’m really not doing that. I’m really not preparing meals or bathing; I’m not nursing. I’m not doing anything like that. That is a caregiver. And I bet you that takes a completely different kind of toll on you than what I’m talking about. Mine would be a more distant kind of toll, like, ambient worry about the coordination and making sure things are happening and things are resources and everybody’s getting communicated with and people know what to do when. So, that’s care CEO. That’s what I am.
AMANDA KERSEY: That’s interesting. I haven’t heard that term before.
LAURA: I haven’t either; I just made it up. [LAUGHTER]
AMANDA KERSEY: That was smart, yeah.
NICOLE TORRES: That’s our show. I’m Nicole Torres.
AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’m Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Kersey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buchholz. Maureen Hoch is our supervising editor. We get technical help from Rob Eckhardt. Erica Truxler makes our discussion guides. JM Olejarz is our copyeditor.