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Cisco’s Fran Katsoudas: How to Talk About Race at Work
What we can learn from the Cisco Chief People Officer’s response to employees who posted racist comments at an all-hands meeting.
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Two days after the murder of George Floyd, Cisco held a virtual all-hands meeting on race for 30,000 employees. But that conversation was marred by racist comments posted by a handful of Cisco employees.
Fran Katsoudas, Cisco’s Chief People Officer, joins host Porter Braswell to discuss how she addressed this incident and held people accountable for their actions. She also explains how Cisco engages with race in a global context and shares her experiences as a Latina climbing the corporate ladder.
HBR Presents is a network of podcasts curated by HBR editors, bringing you the best business ideas from the leading minds in management. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Harvard Business Review or its affiliates.
FRAN KATSOUDAS: And so what I would say to everyone, but especially to senior executives and leaders, is you need to get proximate to those that have different life experiences from you. You have to get proximate to those that do not have a seat at the table. And in doing so, it is going to make you a much better leader.
PORTER BRASWELL: From HBR Presents, this is Race at Work – the show where we explore how race affects our careers and our lives. I’m Porter Braswell. I left a Wall Street career to start a company called Jopwell because I wanted to help corporate America build a more diverse workforce. Each week, we talk to a different leader about their journey with race, equity, and inclusion. These are the conversations we don’t usually have at work. But this show is a safe place to share and learn from each other.
PORTER BRASWELL: Two days after the murder of George Floyd, Cisco held a virtual all-hands meeting on race for 30,000 employees. But during that conversation, racist comments were posted. Our guest this week, Fran Katsoudas, helped plan that all-hands meeting. She’s Cisco’s Chief People Officer. It was also her job to respond to those racist comments after the meeting. We’ll hear how she approached that – and what it teaches us about how to have conversations about race at work. Fran’s work around race and equity at Cisco goes way back. And she says her drive to make Cisco more equitable has a lot to do with her grandmother Dolores, who was an activist within her community in the San Francisco Bay area.
FRAN KATSOUDAS: She was known to be one of the first Latina real estate agents in California. She was someone who always spoke her mind, which as a young girl, I have to tell you, I always respected. And I think that she wanted us to have great insights into the issues that were important to her and for us to find our own. And so she was definitely a huge influence in my life. And I remember one of the first speeches that I did as I started to move into bigger and bigger roles, was really all about her and it was important for me to bring, I think, her experience to the forefront, and it’s a big part of my identity.
PORTER BRASWELL: What were some of those things that you now apply to your role as a senior executive leader within the HR space?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: You know, I think the first is ensuring that every voice is heard, and especially those voices that historically haven’t been at the table. I feel like I have an obligation to seek them out. I think she had a level of courage, especially in those conversations around what was right. Or if she saw something happening to an individual, or group of individuals, she would use her very loud voice. She had a loud voice to just stand up. And so I hope, and I try to hold onto some of those very basic lessons. She was also never afraid to tell the truth, even when it created awkward moments. And I respect that, and I feel like as I get older, that just becomes easier and more natural. And so these are the things that I bring into my role, but I think they’re critical things for all roles to be honest.
PORTER BRASWELL: So just days after the murder of George Floyd, Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins held an all hands meeting on race in front of 30,000 employees via video conference. Why was it so important to the leadership team to talk about George Floyd’s murder in that context – at work?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Because we knew that our people were hurting, we felt like we needed to come together and to address what was happening and to ensure that, for us as a company, we were doing everything that we could to address these social justice issues and anti-racism. We don’t really believe that there’s this line anymore between work and life. We feel that there’s just life. And what we’ve heard from our employees, more broadly, and especially after other, I think social justice challenges and issues over the years, is that you don’t leave that at home as you step into your office, or now in this virtual world, you don’t turn that off and suddenly do your work. And so we felt like it was important for us to come together to reaffirm Cisco’s commitment to full spectrum diversity, to hear from those that could help us to navigate and guide our next steps.
PORTER BRASWELL: At the leadership level, was there any pushback about addressing a company-wide setting about the topic of George Floyd and his murder?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: No, in fact it was really interesting because it was over the weekend that we decided to do the session on Monday morning. And as I reached out to the various members of the leadership team, what I heard was, “Oh, good. We have to do this. How are we going to do it? How can I help?”
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah, and in my experience running Jopwell, working with hundreds of companies, it was rare to see a company respond in the timeframe in which Cisco responded. To be able to have that type of conversation at scale, with all your employees, I think you all should be commended for that. And during that conversation, there were comments that were made that led to several employees being fired. Can you talk about some of those inappropriate comments, and then what were the actions that you all took as a leadership team to address them?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Absolutely. And I think something to share off the top is that this meeting wasn’t a one-time thing and then we were done. We actually talked about social justice, I think on a weekly basis with all employees, I want to say, for about a month. And we had other guests join us, and we talked about what we were doing, we were answering questions. And so this for us was the beginning of a set of conversations, but definitely not a one-meeting response. I think that’s actually really important. And so what happened was Chuck opened the meeting. He asked the team for forgiveness for anything that we didn’t manage perfectly. And then he shared his thoughts about the fact that we have zero tolerance for racism at Cisco. He shared a few thoughts. I jumped in, I talked about what it means to be part of a conscious culture, which is what we are building at Cisco, and how this conversation ties to that in a beautiful way. And then we started to see in the chat, a tremendous amount of support. We saw many employees sharing support for Black Lives Matter, for the discussion that we were having. And in the course of the meeting, there were probably three or four comments that we felt crossed the line and that were racist in nature or inappropriate. And immediately after the meeting, my team came together and we talked about how we wanted to respond. I think the first thing we did was we went around the room and talked about how we were all feeling. I think we were incredibly emotional. And then what we wanted to do is really get to the employees. We had a handful of employees that we felt like crossed the line, but then we had some employees where we felt like their comments were disrespectful, perhaps not really helpful to moving the conversation forward. And we wanted to have a conversation with them, as well.
PORTER BRASWELL: How does one determine what crosses the line? How did your leadership team frame that to the organization in terms of– this is acceptable conversation, this is not acceptable conversation.
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Yeah, I think for all of us, for every company, that is a really important discussion to have. We were fortunate in that we had something that we had pulled together earlier in the year, and we call it the workplace color spectrum tool. And it’s a way for us to really start to capture the way that we look at comments within the company. And so basically what we did the following week was I brought this into the team, and there’s four levels. So the first level is green, and that means that you’re being respectful, productive, inviting. By the way, you can sit in Green land and be really, really constructive. You don’t have to agree, but you’re listening and you’re inviting. And so what I did was I read a few comments that were challenging some of what we were sharing, but doing it in a way that was respectful. We then go to yellow, and that’s where you start to see maybe comments that we would classify as perhaps demotivating, frustrating, perhaps not leading us forward. And then we get to the harder pieces, which is orange and red. And now you’re crossing the line, in that it’s disrespectful, alienating, demoralizing, toxic, disruptive. And this is where I would put something like a racist comment. And so what we did was we went through the colors and then I read some of the worst comments in the orange and the red. And it was hard to read, but it was a way for us to almost come together and educate on how we were going to navigate and what we were going to accept as a company. And we wanted to help people who didn’t understand some of the things we were talking about, figure out how they could ask questions in a way that was productive. And that helped us a lot, Porter, as we move forward, and it’s something that we use today.
PORTER BRASWELL: A term that you often use is full spectrum diversity and inclusion. Can you describe what that means?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Yeah. It basically boils down to seeing everyone and understanding all of the elements of diversity that exist within a company. So when we talk full-spectrum diversity, we are talking gender, we’re talking race, we’re talking ethnicity, we are talking age, we are talking life experiences, we’re talking veteran status, we’re talking orientation. We’re talking everything. And the reason that we do that is that when you acknowledge all, I think people can see themselves at Cisco, and they can see themselves as someone who is important. Something that was fascinating to me – was one of the biggest learnings I had when I stepped into this role – is that when I was on stage talking about diversity, people assumed that really what I was talking about was focusing on white women. So they didn’t know that when I was talking about diversity, I was talking about all. And it was a big moment, and this is part of where proximity and listening help for me to talk to an African-American woman and for her to say, “I don’t think you’re talking about me when you talk about gender diversity on stage.” And that was an awakening and what I found was that when we, as a company, started to focus on full spectrum diversity, all of the measures around representation that we looked at started to improve because people could see themselves in our focus.
PORTER BRASWELL: So that last part I think is really important in that the representation increased. I guess my concern is if diversity means all, then how do you see measurable progress being made to the most underrepresented groups within this diversity umbrella?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Yeah. So you’re spot on. So basically what we say is we look for all, and then we have very targeted actions around those that are not represented the way that they should be. And so we have to do both. We set a very, very broad definition, but then we get very action oriented. And so, as an example, some of the things that I’m looking at this year that are a little bit new – we’ve looked at pay parity now for five years, and we look at parity for all employees in every country where we do business. This year, something that I’m looking at is I’m looking at promotion parity for the African-American and Black community because what I’ve seen is that in some cases we have groups that can fall behind. And so that’s an example of – you have this broad goal, you hope that everyone can see themselves as a priority, but then you better have actions that address where you have challenges or gaps.
PORTER BRASWELL: And then how do you get the company bought into, “Okay, everybody, we are all seen. This group of folks we have to focus on for this reason.” How do you get the company behind that?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: We say just that. And I think the more that we can share data and insights with our employees, which by the way, is counterintuitive. There’s a lot of people that believe that if you share your gaps and issues, you’ve created an opening for a lawsuit, and that you have to be really careful. And what we have found is that we’re better if we’re transparent. And so an example of that would be – it was almost two years ago now that we shared with our employees, all of the employee relations cases that we have as a company. So we were able to say, “We have this many cases that have to do with bias or discrimination. We have this many cases that have to do with negative behavior.” And then we would double-click and share a little bit of what we’ve heard and what is going on within our company because I think in a conscious culture, you have to address the challenges within the environment, in addition to all of the amazing things. And so, we do our best to really share with our employees what’s going on. And when we believe that when we do, they’re going to understand why we put focus on particular groups or opportunities within the company.
PORTER BRASWELL: Well, curious to hear your perspective, in terms of, especially for your focus of the promotion around the African-American community. Why is it that they’re not seeing promotion within Cisco? What are some of the challenges and obstacles and barriers that exist there where that promotion is not being had?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: You know it’s so interesting Porter because I will tell you that from a numbers perspective, we felt pretty good about where we were across the various groups, but what happened was in January of this year… Gosh, it seems like it was a very different time, Chuck actually brought about 18 members of the Black African-American community to his home. Various levels within the company – some were new, some had been with the company for 15 or 20 years. And we facilitated, and by the way, our chief diversity officer, Sherry Slate, this was her brain child and it’s a beautiful, beautiful idea and program for others, as well. The team facilitated about three hours of conversation. And what’s unique about this is you have the 18 members of the team in the center of the room, and then you have the executive leadership team in a circle around them. And we did not speak, we listened for about three hours, and we listened to a lot of really tough stories, and some good stories too, about what it feels like to be Black at Cisco, what it feels like to have a particular experience with the manager or with a leader. And it was in that conversation that we heard several employees talk about the fact that they just hadn’t had the movement, from a career perspective, that they wanted. And we could feel it, we could see. It was one of those themes with the 18 that we felt we needed to look into. And so what I would tell you is that even though there are times that the numbers tell you that you’re okay, I think you still have to work to understand more of what’s going on. And so that’s how I would describe it, is that we’re putting tremendous focus there, we’re understanding that there’s more that we have to learn. We just started doing it in the spring. I think after we run this program a few more times, there will probably be some tangible insights and learnings that I have from this program, but just a good example of I think we should always have experiments going on that we can learn from.
PORTER BRASWELL: Yeah. Sometimes it amazes me that people seem to forget that at times, all you have to do is humanize this conversation and break bread and welcome people into your home and just listen. And a lot of the solutions can be uncovered.
FRAN KATSOUDAS: To that point, when we had this session, it was probably about 15 minutes in that there was a woman who shared her story and what she shared was that she was asked to ensure that her new manager was successful, and that this had been the, I think second or third time that she was asked to do that. And she basically said, “When am I good enough to be the manager and not just the person that makes them successful?” And she started crying. And as I looked around the room, many of my peers were crying as well. And you’re right, like when you personalize and when someone shares their pain, or their experience, I think it drives a level of curiosity, which I think is so important for all of us to have in these issues. But she, to this day, I think about what she shared and I try to hold myself accountable to ensuring that we have practices that prevent someone from being good enough to make a leader successful, but not good enough to be the leader.
PORTER BRASWELL: How do you think about increasing, not just the promotion of Black folks within Cisco, but also the representation of the Black community within Cisco?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: We know how important it is for all communities to be able to see themselves in the leadership roles at Cisco. And so I think continuing to ensure that we have role models at every level of the company, I think again, full spectrum, I think is super important. So that’s something that we’ll continue to do. And then I think, for not just the Black community, but for all communities, I think continuing to understand the experience and improving on those things that need to be improved on. I think we will retain our talent at a higher level than what we’re doing today. And so far, I’ll tell you that the numbers, from a Cisco perspective, have been positive, and they’re moving in the right direction.
PORTER BRASWELL: And then how do you think about this on a global stage given, I believe you’re represented in over 170 countries around the world?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: That’s exactly right. Something that’s so important is that we want all of our employees around the globe to feel that level of inclusion. And you know this, but country by country, there are different histories and different flavors of what that look like. And so we do our very best to have a global agenda that’s bigger. What was interesting was when we were going through the social justice issues in the U.S. in June, what we were hearing from many countries around the globe is we want to have that conversation too. And there was some disappointment in a few of the countries where the country leaders didn’t move on that conversation quickly. And so I do think this is a broader global issue, and you will continue to see that our efforts really are for the 170 countries, as opposed to just the U.S.
PORTER BRASWELL: What are some of the silent or not so silent obstacles that you faced as a Latina professional climbing the corporate ladder at Cisco? And how did you overcome them?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: When I look back over the last 24 years at Cisco, I have always felt seen and heard, which is amazing. I haven’t always felt that things were right. And in those moments, what I look for is can I voice what I see as an issue, and will that be accepted and heard? And so when I look back on my years at Cisco, it’s more that ability to share when something doesn’t feel right or something isn’t inclusive that has kept me here. I was fortunate. I had early mentors in my career. It was funny, I was thinking about one on Thanksgiving, she always would ask me in these very big meetings where I was by far the most junior and probably one of the few women in the room, how I felt about an issue or what I thought we could do. And it was strange that she would ask me, when she had all of these experts around the table. And it helped me to develop my perspective and my voice and to feel valued. And so those are some of the things that I tried to do for others, but I’ve been fortunate in that, I would say, for the majority of the 24 years, I have felt seen and heard as a woman, as a Latina, as someone who may have different perspectives.
PORTER BRASWELL: So, what would be some of your advice for young professionals of color, if they find themselves in an environment where they don’t feel seen and they don’t feel heard – how should one navigate that to ultimately find the type of success you’ve been able to find in your career?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: So the first thing I would say is you have to do something about it because you’re not going to be happy, and the company or the team isn’t going to be successful if there’s that perception. And so then I think what it becomes is a question around how you do that. And so, if I think back on my experience, when I saw something that I didn’t think was right, and so, I think back to – oh goodness, this was probably about 10 years ago. There was a leadership offsite that we had for the senior leaders of the company. And throughout the three days, I didn’t see a single woman or person of color on the stage. And I just felt that that was a huge miss as a company. And I wasn’t in the role that I’m in today, but I talked to a few people that I respect and that I felt safe in talking to. I shared my concern. I actually sought out their help around, “Hey, what’s the best way to have this conversation?” And then I went to our COO at the time and shared my disappointment and what I thought we could do as we move forward. And he was open to that. And so that’s just another example of, I think we’ll all be in situations where we feel like our companies can be more inclusive or thoughtful or can listen better. And I think we have opportunities to help. Sometimes it takes multiple tries to get it, but that’s something that I have done on many different occasions and many different issues, and it makes me feel like I’m having bigger impact for the company, as well.
PORTER BRASWELL: So in your position as being, again, incredibly senior within Cisco, what would you advise to other listeners who are equally as senior in their organization? And how can they create an environment where a junior employee feels comfortable coming up to them and expressing their point of view?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: So it’s easy. It really is. What is fascinating, we had Bryan Stevenson join us as a company about a year and a half ago. And he came and talked to our employees and something that he talks a lot about is getting proximate to people and to communities. And so what I would say to everyone, but especially to senior executives and leaders, is you need to get proximate to those that have different life experiences from you. You have to get proximate to those that do not have a seat at the table and in doing so, it is going to make you a much better leader. And I think questions around how people experience the organization, what they think perhaps is fair or not fair – I think those conversations are helpful. Something that I think has served us well at Cisco is we try to bring a level of transparency to some of the tougher issues, and in doing so, we inadvertently engage everyone in how we problem solve. And I think that makes us better. And I think these are some of the things that all of us can do.
PORTER BRASWELL: And just for listeners, who can you let us know, who is Bryan Stevenson?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Oh, absolutely. So Bryan Stevenson is the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative, and he has spent his entire career helping to get African-Americans in prison unjustly so, out. And in doing so has brought a tremendous amount of focus to the policing systems across the United States. He was the first person that Chuck Robbins called after the death of George Floyd, and he joined our company meeting to talk about what was happening, how we could engage, what companies can do. And so he’s played a big role, I would say, over the last 18 months in how we approach social justice at Cisco.
PORTER BRASWELL: That’s great. So last question, and this is a question that I ask all of our guests – and I think this question potentially has a special resonance for you, given the recent experiences at Cisco – but should race be discussed at work?
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Absolutely yes. I read a stat back in May, and the stat was that the majority of people have experiences with difference in the workplace and not in their day-to-day lives. And so work becomes a very natural place for us to discuss race. I think it makes us better. I think the best talent is going to want to work for companies that are hitting these issues head on and companies that believe in something bigger. I just think that’s so incredibly important for us – this powering an inclusive future for all. That’s our purpose. It really guides us. But I think people work so incredibly hard on a day-to-day basis that you want to feel like you’re doing it in a place that makes the world better, and I think race discussion is a big part of how you do that.
PORTER BRASWELL: Well, Fran, thank you so much for having this important conversation with us. I truly am energized by this dialogue. I think it’s really important that for somebody so senior within an organization, that they have a strong understanding of the various topics surrounding diversity, equity, and inclusion, and not just an understanding, but then actually implementing it. So thank you very much.
FRAN KATSOUDAS: Thank you so much, Porter. Appreciate it.
PORTER BRASWELL: That’s Fran Katsoudas, Chief People Officer of Cisco. This episode was produced by Amy Chyan and edited by Anne Saini. I’m Porter Braswell. Thanks for listening to Race at Work – part of the HBR Presents network.