When Your Partner Isn’t Giving You the Support You Need

AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo. If you’ve been listening to our show for a while or reading our newsletter, you know that we regularly ask listeners and readers to tell us about the workplace challenges they’re facing. And this one particular email landed in our inbox recently about a dilemma that we think is very relatable and yet rarely discussed.

AMY BERNSTEIN: The woman who wrote that email gave us permission to read it out loud. Here goes. “Hello. I’m not sure this has been covered before, but I personally am being challenged in a way that may be an issue for others as well. It’s difficult to get my husband to wholeheartedly support my career and its development. He’s an excellent partner, we make a great team and he absolutely intends to be supportive. But when I face additional demands for my job, he tends to grumble a bit about the longer hours or extra stress I’m experiencing.” And then she gives some background about her career and family life. She’s in biotech, working in research and development. She and her husband have been married for seven years and have two kids. He’s an attorney and earns a higher salary than she does, but her total compensation package is larger and includes a family health insurance. After their first baby, she switched from the technical scientist track to program management in order to have greater control over her schedule and be able to work from home more often. “I’m not underpaid, underappreciated, or unhappy in my career” she writes. “We generally communicate openly and well. There’s never been an expectation or desire for me to be a stay-at-home parent, yet if I need to travel for a day or two, or if I need to work past 5:00 PM he, grouses.” She goes on to say that when she’s earned promotions in the past, they’ve discussed how to manage the additional demands together. “He still doesn’t seem to understand how to support my career development,” she continues, “which can make me feel as though he is being dismissive. I’m wondering if it’s a result of some unconscious bias. His own mother never desired or pursued a career outside the home and cared for him and his sister full-time. He also works in a different field, which makes it difficult to contextualize struggles I’m facing in a way that he can easily grasp.”

AMY GALLO: She gave an example too, right?

AMY BERNSTEIN: She sure did. Here it is. “I recently expressed discontent with decisions made by leadership and shared my concerns with my husband, wanting to talk through my approach for responding appropriately in the office. He did not offer any guidance, support or commiseration, but responded with concerned questions about whether I would leave my job and reduce our household income.” I’ll keep quoting her. “I always employ strategies to garner his support for business trips or late work events, including coordination with family or friends to ensure he has a hand with childcare while I’m gone if he needs it. He still fusses.” And so, now she’s stepping into a leadership role supporting a department, and that’s about to require even more travel. “I’m not sure how to get him to buy in and that makes me nervous as I gear up to take on even more responsibility. Let me know if you’d like more information or if you have material that already addresses this, I’d love to see it. Thanks. Rebecca.”

AMY GALLO: This is a problem I think so many of us can relate to or at least parts of it. HBR has published a fair amount of advice for dual career couples, a lot of it by INSEAD professor, Jennifer Petriglieri.

AMY BERNSTEIN: She’s been on our show before in our season one episode, Couples at Work, which is also the title of her book.

AMY GALLO: And that episode embraced the fact that the people we love have a big impact on us professionally. Jennifer was also describing an ideal mutually supportive relationship and how to achieve it. She wasn’t so much talking about what falling short looks and feels like. And so, hearing about Rebecca’s situation to me is validating, and having her on the show along with Jennifer is even better. We’re going to learn from both of them about how to handle career family tension, especially when it’s the first time you’ve faced it or are ready to acknowledge and deal with it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Jen and Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us.

REBECCA: I’m really excited to take part in this conversation today.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: It’s great to be here. Thanks for having us.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, let me start with you, Jen. In studying dual career couples, you identified three phases of their lives retention tends to surface. Would you say Rebecca’s in the first phase?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, absolutely. So, the first phase is really the phase where we work out how to be interdependent. If we think about our lives before we get together, we have these independent lives, independent careers, and when we initially get together, we’re still relatively independent. We have our careers running, our families, our friends, and then something happens that means we really need to combine those tracks. And I think in Rebecca’s case, I don’t want to speak for it, but I think it’s probably the arrival of your children. I think you have two children, Rebecca, and they’re fairly young. And for any of us who’ve had children, myself included, it’s a huge transition and it really means we have to work together as a team and not just on the practical things, but also really figuring out what does it mean to be a couple? How are we going to support each other? How are we going to be as parents as workers and careers? And there’s a lot of things to untangle at that phase and it feels like Rebecca’s right in the middle of that tangle and trying to sort make it work really.

AMY GALLO: Do you relate to that, Rebecca?

REBECCA: I absolutely relate to that. I think the pandemic hitting right when our oldest was about 18 months old, really exacerbated the pressures that come along with that first transition. So, rather than simply how do we make this work as parents, as a couple in our career, there was this added layer of how do we make everything work? How do we make a trip to the grocery store work? How do we make remote work happen? At this point, I was still going into the office to work in the lab a few days a week and then analyzing data and writing reports at home. So, we really needed to figure out how to function as a family in that situation. And then the decision to have a second child in the midst of all of this was a bold choice and obviously we wouldn’t have it any other way, but there’s a lot of moving pieces in that transition for sure.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, and I think Rebecca, your experience is so similar to the couples that the pandemic, it didn’t change things per se, but it upped the ante, it amplified everything that was going on. It created this spotlight with a huge amount of pressure. And I think first of all, congratulations on the second child. What a wonderful gift. But it’s really interesting because it’s very often the arrival of the second child that really makes things more difficult. Because one, you can sort of juggle between you. Two, not so much.

AMY GALLO: I had a child long before the pandemic, and I have to say when she was born in the first year, I thought to myself, this is the most unfeminist thing I’ve ever done. And I don’t mean that having the child, but I mean that it was all of a sudden societal expectations and the expectations within my marriage were that I would carry all of the load. And I just thought, wait, wait, wait. How did this come to be? All the work we’ve done to advance women and advance women’s careers, how is that all of a sudden out the window because I have this baby in my arms?

AMY BERNSTEIN: I’m sorry, but something you just said Amy, I want to sort of bounce it over to Rebecca. You said that the expectations in your marriage were that you would carry the load. Was that true of your marriage, Rebecca?

REBECCA: To a certain extent, yes. I mean I nursed both of our babies. So, you sort of set that expectation right from the beginning that this tiny little being is attached to you pretty much constantly and then you are the one waking up in the middle of the night constantly for it. So, figuring out how to transition away from that as you can share feeding responsibilities and figuring out how to equitably share parenting roles when it’s so clear that when one person is nursing, it just seems so normal for that to be the go-to person for everything is also a struggle. And when you are exhausted, it’s really hard to say, I need you to take the baby. Or for that other person who’s trying to keep everything else running to see exactly what you need in that time and jump in to provide it.

AMY GALLO: Well, the exhaustion I think is a good point because it’s hard. You can’t find the time to even have the conversation about how do we equitably share the workload here, and workload meaning home and work and all of that. Jennifer, I’m curious, how often do couples actually have those conversations either before they have children or soon after?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: It’s a really good question. So, I think very few couples have those full conversations before, partly because we don’t think of it and partly because it’s very difficult to imagine what it’s going to be like until that baby arrives. You can read all the parenting books in the world, but until the rubber hits the road, you just don’t know. But I think what happens is two things. We are either having those at sort of four o’clock in the morning emergency when tempers are frayed, which is not going to go anywhere, or we just let it go. And I think Rebecca’s right, it’s kind of been working, but there’s also the sense that it becomes the default. This is what we’ve done for the first three months. So, we carry on a little bit without questioning until it becomes very clear it’s not working. And then there’s that sort of crisis point and how do we rewind?

AMY GALLO: What are some of the tools, Jen, that you recommend a couple in this first phase actually employ to get through it?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: So, I think when we’re in the phase that Rebecca’s in, and I remember it’s a long time ago for me, but I remember when my two kids were that age, we tend to really focus on the practicalities. And of course it’s important. Who’s on duty tonight? Who picks them up from the creche? Whatever that happens to be. But I found with the couples in my research, the most important thing is to really rewind the basics and look at how are we managing this as a couple almost at the psychological level. And Rebecca, I was really struck by your email where your husband’s clearly a good guy, he has good intentions, but it’s a little bit more at the level of, okay, whose career is most important? Who has the power? How do we support each other? And certainly what I found in my research is if we figure those sort of foundational things out, the practicalities become a little clearer because the deal we have is clearer. And I think unless we figure that out, you can work on the practicalities all you like, but you keep bumping into the same issue, which is whose responsibility is it? Who has the power? Why is it always me? You can’t fix those things by just working out a schedule.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s a kind of discomforting conversation to have though, isn’t it? How do you do it, Jen?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: It can be a discomforting conversation I think particularly when you see it as a conversation. We’re going to sit down tonight and we’re going to figure it all out. I mean that’s a really tall order and I certainly wouldn’t recommend anyone doing that, even with a big bottle of wine. That’s not going to happen. I think this is about a series of conversations and really starting off on the baseline is what is important to us individually and also as a couple? So, I think in Rebecca’s situation, the sort of two conversations to start with, which is maybe thinking of the next five years. And I always think that’s a good time period, especially with small children. Because you can kind of imagine your one year old going to 6, but it’s hard to imagine them going to 11. 10 years feels a long time. Five years is a good time period because it’s long enough that we can really make some transitions in our family and in our career. But it’s not so far out that we can’t imagine what it’s like, and really sitting down and saying what is important to us in the next five years individually and as a couple? And that includes professional goals, it includes what kind of family do we want to build? And the thing that we often miss at this stage when our children are little is the things for us, what’s the two or three things that are really important for me? And that’s a great starting conversation because you don’t need to agree anything. It’s just understanding and building a mutual understanding of who wants what and that really should be the foundation for all the decisions you’re going to make from there on in.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Rebecca, did you and your husband have any of those conversations about expectations or how to divide things up?

REBECCA: We did. Before we got engaged, when we were of in the process of building a life together and then we didn’t really talk about it again. So as life really started taking off, and this was, I mean he had basically just graduated from law school. I, at the time, was thinking that I wanted to go to medical school and decided not to, but then we jumped into actual careers that kind of have minds of their own when it comes to development and had children. And we haven’t really revisited those conversations like you said, Amy, because you’re exhausted. How do you find that time? And it’s either at 4:00 AM when you’re losing your mind, which is not productive, or it just doesn’t happen and you end up just seething at one another, or it pops out at odd moments.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Jen, how would you suggest Rebecca handle this?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: I think super practically, first of all, break those conversations down into snippets. So, you don’t need four hours, you need a series of 20 minutes, we can find 20 minutes. The kids go to bed relatively early, the kids are in bed, we put our phones down immediately, we sit down with a cup of tea, we say, “Okay, the next 20 minutes we’re just going to talk about this.” And I think that first conversation is really just building mutual understanding. What do we both want? I love what you said Rebecca, because I think we all do this. At the early days, we talk about all these things and then it goes under the wayside, and of course what we want changes. This is very normal. So, I imagine even that conversation, both you and your husband will probably be surprised by what you hear. There’ll be some things that just stay constant and other things you’re like, wow, I didn’t realize that actually. And that’s just a really important point to start. So, that’s the first 20-minute conversation.

Then maybe the next week you have another conversation around, given that, let’s look at our careers vis-a-vis each other and whose career is going to take priority if anyone’s? And have the career conversation. What are we going to do to manage our careers side by side? And then the next week we start to think, okay, given that, what are some of the practicalities? One of the things that often creates tension at this stage, we have this sense that our careers are kind of 50-50 on equal footing, that very often then our parenting is not co-parenting, the lion’s share falls on typically the woman. And this is just not sustainable. If we have 50-50 careers, we need 50-50 parenting and sort of building up like that makes those issues become very clear what the crux is and it makes us able to tackle it. So, I would say bite size chunks, 20-minute go’s, I’m sure you’ll be able to fit that into your schedule.

REBECCA: I love that.

AMY GALLO: Well and I think even toasting with your tea at the beginning of that conversation, we got the kids to bed, something that sets up we’re in this together. Because if I think about what would make me nervous about that conversation is that most of us aren’t skilled in having tense conversations or difficult conversations with our spouses or with anyone. And so, I would be worried speaking from experience that it would be sort of an airing of resentments as opposed to a collaborative conversation. So, how do you set it up so it’s productive, not contentious?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Fair. But I think you need to check that assumption, Amy.

AMY GALLO: Okay, fair.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Because I think sometimes it’s our assumptions that get us into trouble. Oh my god, this is a big deal and I’m really tense. The conversation will be tense if you go in this way. And I think particularly if you start with what are you excited about? What are your goals for the next five years? There’s nothing contentious in that conversation. And then you’re developing the method of talking to each other and then next time, maybe you touch on something a little bit more difficult. “Okay, so how are we going to figure out our careers next to each other?” And then you sort of work up to the more contentious stuff. But by the time you’ve done that, you’ll be in the habit of having these conversations so the tension is sort of popped out of it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Jen, you recommend that before couples get into the practical matters, that they discuss the underlying issues, the psychological forces, the assumptions, all of the stuff that we’ve been talking about here. Can you say why that’s important?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Because it’s about the symptom versus the cause. The practical issues are always the symptom. If you are fighting about who’s buying the milk, it’s never about the milk. And I think we all know that, it’s not about the milk, it’s not about who does pick, it’s about who has the power, who gets to decide whose schedule is respected. And you can do all sorts of Google Calendar syncs or schedules around who does shopping. It’s not going to solve those issues. And that’s why it’s really important to get down to basics. And what I find, and I’m sure Rebecca, you’ll find this as well because it sounds like your husband has great intentions, is when you start having those conversations, a lot of what is going on is misunderstanding as opposed to misalignment. I find it hard to believe, and I’m sure Rebecca doesn’t believe either that her husband is kind of trying to get her to do everything or doesn’t care. He doesn’t sound like that sort of guy. It’s just there’s some misunderstanding where you’re sort of passing past each other, and building that mutual understanding just goes a whole way and you can build the practicalities on top of that.

AMY GALLO: I think about the Brené Brown advice around using the phrase, “The story I’m telling myself.” I see you nodding. Rebecca, have you used that?

REBECCA: I used that.

AMY GALLO: Tell us how.

REBECCA: So, I had this discussion with my husband and I said, “I want to know what is going on in your head when you see me working past five or dialing in after the kids have gone to bed to catch up on something. I want to know what’s going on in your head because the story I’m telling myself is that you don’t think I should be doing this, that you don’t think I should be putting in the work to gear up for this promotion that I’m working toward.” And I told him that I was worried that part of it was internalized misogyny that we all may struggle with on occasion. So, he said, “What’s going through my head is, I don’t think they’re paying you enough for this. I don’t think they’re appreciating you enough for this.”

AMY GALLO: Interesting.

REBECCA: That’s very different than …

AMY GALLO: You’re wasting your time for a woman, you should stop.

REBECCA: Yes. On my side, I’ve had a long day, I went to the grocery store on my lunch hour, so I’m trying to catch up now so that we can have some family time before we wrestled with children into bed. And now you are grumbling at me about working late, which doesn’t help. So, understanding where he’s coming from with that makes a huge, huge difference.

AMY GALLO: Well, because what I hear in his response is that he cares about you, he cares about you and he cares about your career and you not being taken advantage of, which is very different than I care about me. And the fact that you’re working late is inconvenient to me, which is what about my interpretation too, to be fair. And I think that goes, Jen, to your point about misunderstanding versus misalignment.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: And I have a question if I may, Rebecca. In an ideal world, what support would you like from him? If he could do two or three things a week, what would be like the, oh my goodness, if these are the two or three things you could do that would be brilliant? Do you have a sense of what they are, what you need?

REBECCA: I think, I’m not going to speak for everyone experiencing this first transition or every couple with small children, but connection, finding time for connection is so tough. So, reaching out and saying, “I know you’re going through this big thing at work. Tell me more about what you’re finding out.” Or, “I want to hear about how you’re dealing with this,” reaching out. So, reaching out to connect and approaching it from that sort of caring space rather than from something that might look like complaining if you are not in the appropriate mindset. That’s really what is needed, I think.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Does he know? Would he be surprised if he heard you say that?

REBECCA: I don’t know.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: You see, let me tell you what I find a lot with couples is I’m sure he wants to be a supportive partner. We all want to be supportive partners, but very often we just don’t know how. And so we sort of do a little scatter gun approach. We try a bit of this, we try a bit of that and we feel like we’re trying really hard and we’re not getting anywhere. And sometimes the most helpful thing you can say to him is, “Look, if there’s one thing I could have from you, it’s like 10 minutes a day where you put your phone down and you’re just a sounding board for me. And if I could have that from a stance of compassion, everything would get better.” He will probably thank you for that, for infinity. Because what it is it says to him, okay, I only need to do these 10 minutes a day. It’s like I know how to do the thing you want. I really recommend you try that because I think so often people say to me, “Well if I knew that was what it was, that would be easy.” And I think that conversation in some way that this is what I need for you is almost as important as the, okay, how do our careers fit together? Who has the power? Just asking for what we need. And I think it’s something we all feel a bit shy about doing.

AMY GALLO: My husband asked me years ago, it was very simple request, he said, “Can you just say one thought to me a day that doesn’t have to do with logistics, or our kid, just like something that’s gone through your head?” And I remember at the time, I actually was really angry. I was like, “Nothing goes through my head except for logistics and kid and job. I don’t have time for anything else.” And he’s like, “I don’t believe that.” And it’s true. And I hear him still, I actually heard him last weekend tell this story and he said, “It was so great, she actually did it and she had really interesting thoughts.” And it was so easy once I sort of gave up the resentment about it. But I am curious about this request for Rebecca because I do remember from your email, Rebecca, that your husband wasn’t supportive when you brought up this workplace conflict that was happening. So, do you think that request would land well with him?

REBECCA: I’m not sure. I’ll try it later and let you know.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, I find it so hard just to say what I need. I wonder if all of you feel that way too.

AMY GALLO: There’s lots of nodding happening. Yes.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, definitely. What about you Rebecca? Is it easy or difficult for you just to pinpoint what you need and say it out loud?

REBECCA: I think it’s difficult. So, putting in the work to pinpoint what you need, that also takes a little space. And working toward a promotion at work and having the small children and going through other transitions, finding the space that you need in order to do that kind of thing, that has definitely been a challenge. And that’s one of the things that has been difficult to communicating. I would love to hear how any or all of you who are successful people that I admire have managed to navigate that piece of figuring out what exactly you needed and asking for it from your partner.

AMY GALLO: For me it’s really, as Rebecca said, trying to figure out what I actually need and not getting hung up in the antagonism of, I just need you to stop being a jerk. And be like, okay, wait, what do I really need? And the other hurdle I’ve had to get over is to not pre-argue what I’m asking for. So, I want something, let’s say I want him to take care of all of the groceries from now forever because I’ve handled it too much and I’m done. Making that request, I already am in my head going through why he will say that’s not fair or why that won’t work or why he can’t do that. And I’ve had to learn to put that down and just say, I can make the request. He can say no or he can say yes and then it’s a conversation. But I’m entitled and I’m allowed to make the request to see whether he would do it. By the way, he does take care of all the groceries now, which is lovely.

REBECCA: How did you get him there? How did that work out?

AMY GALLO: Well, he was actually a lot less resistant than I imagined, which was the lesson. I said it and I could see he was like, ooh. He was a little hesitant, but I was like, this would really help me just to take something, one of the many things I keep in my head off. Just to get that out of my head and on your plate instead would just be so helpful. And I think the other thing that had helped is I had sent him a podcast about this specific thing about people who were trying to better share equitably in a relationship and how overloaded this particular woman felt. I said, “I really relate to what she’s saying.” And so, it gave him some empathy without me having to say, “I feel overloaded” which in the past had often felt like you’re not doing enough. And so, it gave him a moment of, okay, this woman is articulating what my wife is feeling. This isn’t about me doing something wrong. This is about her needing help. And so, we had that conversation and it took, to be fair, it wasn’t like I asked, he was like, “Yes, I’ll do it.” It took some back and forth and it took a couple weeks of, then there were no groceries. And so, I was like, “Remember you’re doing the groceries?” And he was like, “Yep, yep. On it, on it.” So, it wasn’t smooth and it wasn’t perfect. It’s still not smooth and perfect, but it’s so much better because I don’t think about it until there’s no groceries.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Jen, what about you? Have you made requests that you’ve been able to get yourself…

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, so I’ve tended to take a quite different tact, which is to ask him what he needs before saying what I need.

AMY GALLO: So generous of you.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Well, it helps me to understand the situation better before I go and ask for something, which then I think, oh, I asked for the wrong thing.

AMY GALLO: Oh, interesting.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: I didn’t really want that. Actually, let me change my mind.

AMY GALLO: Wait, it clarifies your own request?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yes. I think so because I think it’s a little bit this kind of check your assumptions. There’s always two people involved in a problem and I find it super helpful to see his perspective before I kind of clarify mine into a request. So, that has kind of helped me and it also gives me a little bit of time to think it through before I’m like, okay, this is really what I need from you. I also find just tactically when you sort give first, you almost always get back. So, it’s this classic give and take.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, when you were talking about the conversation you were having, Rebecca, with your husband about you were not happy with your work and his response was concern that you might leave the job and not bring home the salary. Jennifer, isn’t this one of the very same traps you’ve been talking about?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah. So, what I find in this first transition is it’s a time in life and I’m sure Rebecca’s there as well where money is important. It’s important we have a financial income, especially when we have young children coming along. They are very expensive. But the problem is we can over focus on money as a decision criteria, but also a concern that’s up in our partnership. That everything comes back to, “Goodness, do we have enough money? What is this going to impact it?” And there’s a couple of problems with that. I mean one is it takes the emphasis, I think Rebecca, as it did with you off the real problem, what’s really going on here? Which was at that point your distress with the job. But I also think it can lead us to make decisions that don’t make sense later on in our period as a couple. And so, the danger is one or other of you walk down a road in your career that in a few years’ time you’ll look back and think, Oh goodness, that was the wrong decision, even though logically it sort of makes sense at that time. So, I don’t know what you make of that, Rebecca, whether you can see that happening.

REBECCA: Oh absolutely. I think at the time in that discussion, the most difficult thing was you are missing the point. I’m not saying that I’m done, I’m throwing in a towel, I’m quitting. I’m saying that this is a challenge I’m experiencing, and I would either like some feedback on how you think I can navigate it or some support when I tell you that I’m not quite sure how to navigate this. So, it might be a little messy for a bit. So, it just kind of shut everything down there. But over focusing on money is absolutely something that can happen. Like, oh well we need to live here because it’s cheaper. It’s very difficult, especially when you are thinking about so many different logistics to stay true to who you want to be as a family, who you want to be as a couple, who you want to be as a person, as a parent when the logistics completely take over.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and I imagine it’s compounding too, Jen, if you focus on the person who makes more money, for example, that’s a natural inclination I think for your career matters because you make more money. Then that person will just always make more money because you’re not focused on increasing the other person’s earning potential.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: So, yes and no. I think that the even more complicated thing about money is, particularly in today’s climate, which is quite uncertain, it’s not guaranteed that person will always make more money, which is even more tricky because if you really then focus on that career, who knows? They may be laid off, something might happen to that career and suddenly you are relying on the other person and you’ve taken the focus of their career so you’ve harmed their earning power. So, it’s really a kind of false sense of security where we say you earn more and therefore we should put more focus on you. That’s a fools game because what we know about careers in this day and age is our earning power now is not as correlated to our earning power in the future as it perhaps was for our parents’ generation. That’s just not the case anymore. So, you have to be really careful of making that assumption. And I think in Rebecca’s case as well, it’s not just the pay packet you get at the end of the month, it’s the benefits. And especially when you have kids, those benefits are critical. The healthcare benefits, the other benefits. So, can we look at this in the round as opposed to just how much money is coming into our account?

AMY GALLO: That’s a very helpful reminder because as someone who makes more money in my relationship, I have to admit there are times where I’m like, we should be focused more on my career. There is sort of an entitlement that I feel about it. Amy B, I know that your spouse doesn’t have a traditional job, so I’m curious if you also feel like the decisions have focused on my career and I’ve felt that was warranted. But Jen’s warning is a good one.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, I think it’s a great warning. And I wonder when you’re the higher earning spouse, there’s a lot of resentment that comes along on both sides. So, I would imagine de-emphasizing the finances might help, but really Jen, is that true?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: And I also think let’s get real, finances are important. This is not to say they’re not important, but it’s about can we put them in perspective with everything else? I also think you’re right, there can be an enormous pressure, especially when the wage gap becomes really high that goodness me, I better not lose my job. I better keep everything going. And that’s an enormous burden to carry on your shoulders. It’s worth you reminding yourself of that, that it’s not worth focusing too much on one person’s career because you’re going to load that person up. It’s much better for your mental health, both of you, that you try and keep things roughly on even keel.

AMY GALLO: In your work, Jen, you also talk about, because we’re talking about kids a lot, but I’m cognizant that there are other things that make these transitions hard. Could you talk a little bit about what other things might trigger these moments for us?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, so I mean Rebecca’s at a career stage, which is often one of acceleration, in our sort of late 20s and 30s, it’s a time when our career’s moving quite quickly. So, there’s opportunities coming up. I know Rebecca’s talking about a promotion she’s going for, I don’t know where your husband is, Rebecca, but I imagine he has opportunities as well. So, is this kind of a little bit of the rocket ship phase of the career? And so two things are happening there. One is things we’ve agreed on six months ago may not be relevant six months later because things are moving very quickly. And secondly, there’s a, how do we keep track of all those choices? So, there may be a geographical element in that. Is geography coming up? Is that on the table that there might be a move? Which can be a very difficult thing to negotiate for couples, particularly if you are family nearby and small children. And how do you juggle all of that? It might be a case of, I know you didn’t make that choice, Rebecca, but one of you might want to go and retrain, whether it’s medicine or something else. How do you juggle that? So, it’s just a time where there’s a lot of moving pieces and it’s very hard to think we’ll fix this little area. And then something else. It’s a little bit like the Whack-A-Mole. You think you fix one and then something else comes up, which is why it’s really important to try and look at it a little bit holistically rather than, okay, let’s try and figure out what to do with the childcare and then let’s figure out this and that. It’s like, can we look at the whole picture so we can manage all these moving pieces at once?

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what does that conversation sound like?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, so again, I think it comes back to this, five-year period. What do we really want? Careers, home, family. And does that make sense as a picture? Are we aiming for something that just doesn’t fit together? So, that is the first really important step. I think the second step that we forget about is boundaries. Given that what are some choices we cannot make? Now often time we feel like, oh well I don’t want to shut out options. But when we look at the research on choice, it’s actually really helpful because we see the more choice we have, the harder it is to choose and the more we regret our choices. So maybe it is, okay, we’re going to go for this, but we are not going to move, we’re going to stay in this geography. That’s a big uncertainty you’ve taken off the table, which really kind of decreases the pressure on you as a couple. Or maybe it’s we’d love a third child, but that is just not going to work given everything else we want. That choice is off the table. Or maybe it’s, so we both want to make career transitions, but it’s not going to work as doing them exactly the same time. So, you are going to go first, so I’m going to push for the next year and then you are going to push for the next year. Figuring out these boundaries is really important because it takes that uncertainty off the table. And often I think Amy, you was saying about that resentment building up or that kind of building up, that is very often about uncertainty and imagining if I do this, my partner’s going to react in that way. It’s very often the fantasy that’s running in our head as opposed to the reality. So, that boundary conversation’s really helpful.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Have you done this, Rebecca? Have you had a boundary conversation?

REBECCA: A little bit. Most recently it was about travel for work. So, travel was not really part of my job description before, but in this new role that I’m moving into, it is. But the way that my husband was approaching the conversation was, “If they ask you, if they tell you that you need to travel this much, that’s not going to work.” And I said, “No, I am the one creating this role. I’m carving out this function. I get to say how much travel we can tolerate. So let’s talk about what that means. How much travel is too much travel?”

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Exactly.

REBECCA: What does that mean? Because that’s another thing that, misunderstanding versus misalignment. What is too much travel to you? What is working too much? What is not having enough of a hand in parenting? What do these things mean to you so that we can approach it from the same place. We may have a lot of common language, but when we are missing that, it can create a huge gulf.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And how did that go?

REBECCA: I essentially said, “This is what I was thinking and outlined a very detailed travel, not more than this number of times a year for this number of days at a time, plus monthly day trips as needed.” And said, “Does this work or what part of this needs to work?” And being the incredibly levelheaded, analytical person he is, my husband was like, “Ah, yes, we can work on this.”

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: But I think again, that’s this example of taking uncertainty off the table. When you hear my spouse or my partner is going to travel a lot, it’s like the alarm bells start ringing. Oh my goodness, I’m going to have to look after the kids and I’m going to be on my own. But when you see actually it’s no more than twice a month and for no more than two nights at a time, okay, I can manage that. And so, I think this getting concrete is really helpful in getting specific. Now of course there needs to be flexibility. Sometimes things happen. We need to travel extra. There needs to be that understanding as well. But the more specific we can get, the less stress there is in a couple.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, the specifics you’re talking about, what I’m struggling with, and Jen, I want to hear your thoughts on this are. Because you’ve clearly said, and in all your work, you also say a Google Calendar is not going to save your marriage, like having all the rules and everything. And yet those are the things when I think about what gets us through every week, it is our shared calendar. So, how do you balance the need to be very specific and deliberate with also these bigger conversations? I guess it’s just you need to have both, but I’m curious.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, so it’s about thinking. I mean, I often think about this as a pyramid. You’re not going to make a pyramid without those specific conversations and those agreements. But without the foundation of the agreement in terms of where are our careers going, what do we want? The permit just falls over. So, of course we need to talk about the practicalities. Of course, we need to agree those things, but you cannot do that first. That’s got to come after the big ticket items, which is whose career is taking priority? What’s our parenting model? What’s our values? What are we trying to get out of life? What support do I need from you? What support do you need from me? Once we’ve squared all those, then the top of the pyramid, if you like, the icing on the cake is the syncing Google Calendars. Of course that’s helpful, the splitting chores, the division of labor. But those things alone are not going to help.

REBECCA: So, Jen, what I would really like to know, selfishly for myself and maybe for any listeners who are in similar situations as I am taking on more responsibility and this big, exciting challenge at work, how do I ensure that I’m getting the support that I need from home to form that secure base and succeed in this new role?

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: And of course, that is the most important question to ask. And I do think if you are having just one conversation with your husband, it’s thinking through in advance, what very specifically is your request from him for practical support? And I don’t mean practical as in picking the kids up, but what is the thing every day you want and need? And also doing the other side of that, how can you support him? Because at the end of the day, if we approach a career transition, this is my bigger role, what do I need from it? That’s just not the way a couple works. You taking on a bigger role is good for the family and he needs to get some benefit from it too. So, I think thinking about the one thing he can do or the two things he can do every week, and also asking that in reverse and making sure you’re both benefiting is the most powerful conversation you have. And also pulling him into that transition and saying, “Hey, I’m excited about this, but I cannot do it without you.” You are not going to succeed in that new role without your husband’s backing. I mean, that’s just a fact. And I think for him to really know I need you, and I super appreciate it, if you can do these couple of things, is going to be the most important step forward.

AMY GALLO: You’ve said something in there, Jen, that is maybe obvious to many people, but is an important reframing for me, which is that this interdependent stage transition, it’s a lot about how does my career detract from your career? And you’re actually saying, how does each of our careers add to the family? And I think that’s the benefit for your husband of you making this leadership transition, Rebecca is huge. And it’s easy to get in a scarcity mindset of like, “Well, it’s actually going to cost this and you’re going to travel and we’re going to have to spend all this money and it’s going to be emotionally hard.” But to focus also on the benefits that your children are gaining, that your spouse is gaining. I think so many people forget to do that. I know I do.

REBECCA: From what I took from Jennifer’s wonderful book is that you cannot get through any of these transitions without communication.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And being willing to challenge assumptions and have your assumptions challenged.

AMY GALLO: Well, and to let each other change your mind.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. Exactly.

AMY GALLO: I mean, the other thing is you may go into this leadership role and be like, “Oh, this isn’t for me.” Or your husband may get to the next level and say, “Oh no, actually.” And then you have to communicate your way through that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And every time it happens, it feels miraculous.

AMY GALLO: It’s true. It’s true. I so appreciate your willingness to talk through your story, Rebecca, because I think so much of us suffer in silence about these things, and we see it as yet another failure. I didn’t choose a supportive spouse or I can’t figure out how to get my spouse to be behind me. As this conversation has illustrated, it’s society, it’s misconceptions, it’s lack of tools, it’s lack of support in the community. It’s not a personal failure. And I’m just so grateful to you for sharing.

REBECCA: Thank you. I’m really grateful for the opportunity. And I won’t lie and say that it took no bravery on my part to come here today. But all partnerships have friction. And if one as solid as I like to think ours is experiencing this friction, there are definitely many more people experiencing it who don’t feel empowered to speak up about it. They need to know they’re not alone and they have tools at their disposal. And thank you so much, Jen, for sharing all of that fantastic information.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Yeah, I mean, I’m just so in awe of you, Rebecca, because it takes a lot to talk about this, even though it’s so normal. This is everybody’s life. And in fact, this is actually what makes a couple. What makes a couple is not the long romantic walks or the beautiful weekend away. It’s getting through the tough times together. And that’s what makes us strong as a couple. So, in some ways, this is not a sign of weakness. This is a sign of strength that you can talk about this and really recognize that this is what’s going to forge an amazing relationship for life.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I have learned so much from you, Rebecca, and from you, Jen. This was a great conversation.

JENNIFER PETRIGLIERI: Thanks for having us on. I really enjoyed the conversation as well.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s our show. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo. If you’d like to learn about the two other relationships/career transitions that Jennifer documented, check out her book, Couples That Work. In it, she explains how to communicate your way through a midlife reinvention, and finally, retirement.

AMY BERNSTEIN: HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

AMY GALLO: Women at Work‘s editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed our theme music.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at women@workhbr.org and remember that we have a newsletter written by our producer, Amanda, and edited by Amy G. It includes resources, practical advice, and personal stories to lift you up and move you forward. It’s also free. Subscribe by going to hbr.org/newsletters.