How Do I Make the Case for My First Raise?

ELAINY MATA: Do you think you’re ready for a raise? We asked you all to share your experiences asking for your first raise, and Juan sent us this message.

Juan: The first time I asked for a raise, I was very scared, so it was really hard for me. I’ve been working for around four years in this company, and I start to understand how important I was for the team. You have to understand how valuable you are. That’s the biggest lesson I learned from that process.

ELAINY MATA: Juan is right that knowing your value is important, but getting your first raise is also about being strategic, paying attention to what’s going on at your company and with your boss, and even your boss’s boss. Welcome to New Here, honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work. I’m Elainy Mata. If you’re thinking it’s time to ask for your first raise, and you aren’t sure where to start, this episode is for you. One of the biggest things to realize is that getting a raise is a lot more than just having a conversation with your boss, where you ask for more money. It’s a process that actually starts on day one of your new job. Today we’ll walk you through how to make the case for your first raise, from laying the groundwork, to talking with your boss, and the negotiation that follows. Here to help us do that are two guests, who both have a ton of experience with career and money matters. Anne-Lyse Ngatta, or Anne-Lyse Wealth as she’s known on her podcast, is a certified public accountant who writes and educates about personal finance. She’s also worked in corporate environments, like Big Five accounting firms, where she’s learned how to make the case for her own compensation. Gorick Ng is here too. He’s a college career advisor, and the author of a book that we think a lot about on this show. It’s called The Unspoken Rules: Secrets to Starting Your Career Off Right. Full disclosure, HBR published that book, but Gorick started his career in investment banking and later worked in consulting, so he has a lot of personal experience to share. Okay, let’s get into it. Before I share my story about asking for a raise, I want to ask both of you, do y’all remember the first time that you had to ask for a raise in your first professional job in your career?

GORICK NG: Well, actually the first time was when I didn’t get paid at all. It was a volunteer opportunity. It was for a for-profit company, so they’re making money and I’m helping them make money. I felt like I was actually doing a lot more than even some of their current employees were doing. So I said, “Hey, I’d love to contribute maybe longer term, and over the course of school, and over the coming semester. I am evaluating a couple of other opportunities. Admittedly, they are paid. I’m wondering if we might be able to talk about a stipend, an honorarium,” synonyms for a paycheck.

ELAINY MATA: Not straight up. That’s really funny, I think.

GORICK NG: I think the first time it may have been a gift card, now that I think about it.

ELAINY MATA: Really?

GORICK NG: Yeah, if I hadn’t asked, it would’ve still been zero.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. Wow. Anne-Lyse, I’m curious about your first raise story, and then I’ll share mine.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Oh, sure. The first few years of my career were a little different than most, because the company where I worked, they don’t give you an amazing salary to start, but what they did do every year is they give you a really good raise. I didn’t really have to fight for the first, I want to say first three, four years to get 15-20% raise. It took me to get out of that job, and start another job, and then have the surprise 3-4% raise, because I wasn’t used to that. I wouldn’t call it my first raise, but that was the first time that I actually had to negotiate to get a raise. It took a few months. I want to say a good three, four months, and I did get a nicer bump than 4%.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. Going into my first professional job, that’s when I had to negotiate and ask for a raise for the first time. I remember I had to call my mom, and was like, “How do you word it?” To me, communication is the hardest thing. It’s like, “How do I convey this in a way that still sounds professional, but I still sound like me? I still sound authentic?” I wrote everything down. I practiced, but also improvised, so practicing the improvisation so I don’t feel like I mess up during the conversation. I asked my manager “First, can we have the conversation?” She said yes, and then we scheduled a separate meeting to have the actual conversation. I told her, “This is how much I’m getting paid now, and this is how much I would like to have.” She’s like, “Okay, well let me get back to you.” I think it took three weeks to a little bit more than that, and then she finally was like, “Oh, congrats. We’re giving you this amount,” but it was like $12,000 less than what I’d asked for. My first instinct was, “I would like to renegotiate that,” and she’s like, “Okay, well, I’m going to try.” Then she came back, and she told me, “I’m sorry, this is the amount that they came up with. I don’t think it can go anything higher.” Before we go into what do you do when that happens, I was mentioning one of my challenges is communicating, and saying it in a way that sounds professional and appealing. I want to ask both of you, what are some challenges that you feel early career professionals, or somebody going into their first professional job, face when asking for a first raise?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I think there’s several challenges. One that’s very common is wondering if you are worthy of that raise. Have you been able to deliver the type of work that would commend that raise? When you don’t have anything to compare, if you don’t have a peer to talk to, or like you did, talking to your mother, and getting advice from professionals, you might feel like you don’t even deserve the raise yet. I think another challenge is you don’t necessarily want to come across as someone who’s only in it for the money, so you might be hesitant to have the conversation.

ELAINY MATA: But I want to challenge this, because aren’t we all in it for the money, though? We’re here, we’re working for the money, so why not ask for that money?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Exactly. That’s how I feel.

ELAINY MATA: But it is hard finding that worthiness. I don’t know if it’s imposter syndrome, or if you just struggle with advocating for yourself in general.

GORICK NG: Yeah. For folks in their early career, and honestly for the rest of our careers and lives, it’s this delicate balancing act of being at the right time and saying it with the right tone. What I often see are folks either asking too early or too late, asking too firmly or asking too softly.

ELAINY MATA: What? Okay.

GORICK NG: If we’re talking about too early, I have lost count of the number of folks I’ve talked to who have this, “Oh, kids these days,” kind of conversation. Like, “Oh, these millennials, these Gen Z, they’re so entitled. They just showed up to work for two weeks, and now they want to be CEO.” That’s an example of being too early, perhaps. Then there’s the opposite end of the spectrum, who are folks who may have that imposter syndrome, may not have an insider in the industry who can whisper in their ear and tell them how things really work, in which case they might wait, and wait forever. Those are the folks who are waiting for too long. Then you’ve got folks who are asking maybe too firmly, who come off as if they’re entitled to this promotion, or, “I demand this,” or, “Why isn’t it that I’m getting paid this?” All of that is just a matter of tone of voice. Meanwhile, there are also folks who are a little bit too soft, on the other end of the spectrum, who end up negotiating against themselves. I’m just even speaking for myself, where I don’t end a question with a question mark, and instead I start negotiating against myself, where I’m like, “Hey, what if we could talk about this? Oh, but we don’t actually have to do this if you don’t want to,” and then it’s-

ELAINY MATA: Over-explaining?

GORICK NG: Over-explaining.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah, I do that so much.

GORICK NG: Yeah. It’s really this delicate balance of both time and firmness.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. For both of you, when do you think is a good time to ask? Is it after this one big project that you’ve done? Do you wait for three big projects that you’ve done? All jobs are different.; what should one person should be thinking about of like, “Okay, by this point I should ask for this raise.” The advice that I’ve gotten is once your job starts to stem out of what your original job description is entailing, that’s when you need to ask. Do y’all agree or disagree?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I do agree with that, but sometimes it’s also just a matter of how long have you been with the company? Because you can join a company, and within a month or two, they already are giving you more responsibilities than what the original job description was for, I think at that time it might be too soon. I do believe that if you spend maybe six months, then you have a track record of performing and exceeding expectations, and you can make a stronger case. But also, I want to talk about the folks who have been at a company for longer than a year, and they’re waiting until the next performance review. I think by then it’s probably too late. I think you want to have the conversation at the beginning of the year, when the goals are being set, so that you know exactly how you’re going to be reviewed, and so that you can keep a record of how you exceeding expectations so that when the time comes, later in the year, you can go to your manager and say, “Well, as I mentioned earlier this year, I really want to get a raise, and this is all of the things that I did to warrant me basically asking for a raise.” Because the challenge with waiting until performance review time is that the budget might just not be there anymore.

ELAINY MATA: Oh, dang. It really is timing. That’s hard.

GORICK NG: I think what I’m hearing from both of you is that there’s timing with respect to where you are in the calendar year, and the budgetary cycle, but also timing as it relates to your performance and your potential. Where I first ask myself, “Am I a high performer in the eyes of other people?” Then the question becomes, “Are you also a high potential?” That speaks to the conversation you just had about are you extending beyond your core job description, where folks are seeing enough potential in you that they’re thinking, “Hey, you’re too good to just be doing this. How about we also pull you into this other thing? How about you come join us at this important client meeting?”

Once you find yourself extending beyond that core job description, you’re in many ways already getting a promotion, quote/unquote. You’re getting a promotion in the form of additional responsibilities, which is a good endorsement that people trust you. That’s the point at which it starts making sense to start asking yourself, “Hey. Okay, I’ve gotten promoted from the perspective of more important responsibilities, can now I ask for a better job title, and can I ask for more money?”

ELAINY MATA: I wasn’t thinking about promotion in that way, where, “Oh, you’re getting asked to do more, or be part of more meetings.” I wasn’t thinking about it. I like that, because now I’m like, “Hey, I’ve been promoted a lot.” I should be talking more, but I-

GORICK NG: Clearly, I’m worth more to you now, now let’s-

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. You’re inviting me to these things. Yeah, fair. I like that. I feel like I need to have you in my corner, to be like, “Elainy, this just happened, so you are worth more.” I have a question from a listener, Harsheeni, and they said, “I just started a couple of months ago. The salary listed was 1.5 times the one they offered me since I didn’t have enough experience. My manager and my team is happy with my work, and I think I’m delivering results faster than they expect as well. Do you think I can directly ask them for a raise in my salary to 1.5, the original listed salary? Or how long should I wait before I talk about a raise, and how much can I ask for?” What do y’all think?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: If you’re at the six-month mark, you can definitely ask for a raise. You are able, then, to demonstrate the value that you’ve been able to bring to the company, to the team, and you are more likely to get a raise, or at least be in line to get a raise soon. I think that it’s very important, though, to also do some internal research, and understand, in terms of your company, what is the policy when it comes to raises within the company. If you are already part of the company, it’s unlikely that they’ll give you a 50% raise. But once you have the data from the HR department, and you know where the company stands in terms of how much you can get percentage-wise increase, then you know what the max is, and you can tailor your ask based on that. But I definitely think that if this person has been able to exceed expectations, they’ve been able to deliver, they can make a case for this.

GORICK NG: Yeah, I love the advice of doing some research, because you really need to have a conversation before the conversation, where-

ELAINY MATA: Talk about it. Tell me about it.

GORICK NG: Yeah. Well, this is where a raise, and the conversation that hopefully leads to that raise, isn’t just something you want to wake up one day and say, “Okay, I’m going to set up a meeting.” In an ideal world, you’re coming at this having already had a couple of other conversations with folks around this person or this decision. That means building allies and mentors at this workplace as early as your first day, or even before then, to understand, “How do things actually work around here?” Because when I think about this particular case, it sounds like there’s a policy, there’s what’s written, but there might be some ambiguity, or some ability to bend those rules. The first thing I would try to understand is, “Okay, where does this experience clause come from? Do they have something very rigid, as in you need to have two years of experience, a master’s degree?” Some work environments really are that rigid, but anything short of that, and maybe there’s something about, not experience, but contribution. It sounds like Harsheeni’s situation is one where people were expecting that with experience comes a greater ability to contribute, but Harsheeni was able to contribute so much more despite the lack of experience.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah.

GORICK NG: If that’s the case, well, can we revisit this because the spirit of the policy is one of contribution and not experience? That’s something you need to learn from a coworker who’s been through this process before. You want to be armed with as much information as possible.

ELAINY MATA: That’s how you lay the groundwork for getting a raise. Coming up after the break, we’re going to talk about that big moment. The actual negotiation with your boss, and strategies to get the outcome you want. Be right back. Okay, we are back. Let’s pick it up where we left off. Should we go in with a set number when going into the room to have this conversation?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I believe you should have two. You should have what you’re going to ask, and what your real number is. The reason being, most likely you won’t necessarily get what you want, because remember, it’s going to be a negotiation. Yeah, my philosophy is have two numbers.

GORICK NG: I love that.

ELAINY MATA: Me too.

GORICK NG: When it comes to having those two numbers, there’s probably going to be somewhat of a difference between the number that’s possible within your particular context, and the number that you’re actually valued at with the market. Another way of thinking about your worth, which is at the crux of this whole conversation, is what else could you get? Now, the more antagonistic way of doing this, and some people unfortunately really are in this situation, or fortunately depending on your perspective, is someone comes along, like a recruiter for example, and says, “Hey, check out this role. We can pay you this much.” It’s like, “Oh, my goodness, it’s magnitudes more than I currently have.” Those people go to their company and say, “Hey, I would love to really have this conversation about whether I could get a little bit more,” then the company shoots down the conversation. Then they accept this other offer that’s paying them a lot more, and they come back, and then their company’s like, “Oh, wait a second. Actually, we could pay you more,” in which case folks are then coming back and thinking, “Well, did it really take someone else to pull me away for you to really treat me with value?” That’s the antagonistic way. The other one is to have these other benchmarks in your back pocket, and say, “Hey, I’m evaluating these opportunities,” and/or, “I was doing this research,” or, “My peers at other organizations,” or, “I’m deciding between… I have decided when I accepted this job offer between this opportunity and this other opportunity, what would it take for us to get closer to, or to match, what I’ve been offered, or however much the market is valuing me at?”

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. How do you plan for that conversation so you can sound confident, and you just sound like you’re ready when you’re going in there? What is your advice of preparing for that conversation?

GORICK NG: There’s a slight difference between achieving a salary match versus salary parity. Salary match is where you’re matching something that’s external, versus, and unfortunately, this is especially the case for folks who are coming from underrepresented backgrounds, and women, which is that they’re just paid less than their coworkers, and that’s achieving salary parody. So, “Hey, I’m performing at this level, my peers are getting paid this much, what would it take?” That moves us into that conversation where the general structure of a conversation that I found helpful is to say, “Here are the facts, or here’s the situation. This is what my request is. What would it take to make this work?” What you’re saying is, “Hey, look, here’s the world. Here’s the state of things. I would like to respectfully see what we can do to achieve this parody, or this match. Can we please have a conversation about what this would take?” You’re asking, not necessarily for permission, but you’re inviting a conversation, and it’s much less antagonistic than like, “Wow, why are you not treating me well enough?” Or, “I deserve so much more,” which might rub folks off in the wrong way, and it’s ultimately about whether the other person wants to help you just as much as they can help you.

ELAINY MATA: I think it then becomes the long game of, “How do I cultivate this relationship, or this conversation, so that I can meet this final goal?” It is that, “Let’s plant the seed of the conversation. Let’s talk about it. Let’s cultivate it.” You’re taking care of it. This is the conversation, and you’re taking care of it over time.

GORICK NG: I love that. Yeah, it does take time. You’re planting seeds, and you’re inviting a conversation, which will probably lead, as was the case in your situation, to another conversation, to another conversation.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. What if your boss, or your manager, whoever you’re asking, seems hostile or disinterested in this conversation, what should you do then?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Is it that you maybe caught your manager at the wrong time, or do you think that they’re just not invested in your development?

ELAINY MATA: Let’s say that they’re not invested in the development.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I’ll give you a very honest answer.

ELAINY MATA: Yes. Yes.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I think that’s when it’s time to start thinking about maybe another position. It could be within the company or outside of the company, but I do think that if your manager is not interested in helping you grow, then beyond this raise, it’s going to be a challenge for you to grow within the company.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah, red flag. Okay, so we had this conversation, or multiple conversations. How do we wrap it up nicely in a bow? Now, I’ve seen on TikTok that once you give the amount, you just be quiet. I am trying to practice that, because I’m also an over-explainer. What you were saying, Gorick, earlier was like, Oh, I’ll negotiate against myself, and I’ll just word vomit. I’ll be like, “It’s okay. We could do this.” I’ve been trying in a lot of different ways just being like, “This is my ask. There.” That’s it, which can feel really uncomfortable, but I think it shows poise and confidence. “This is what I’m asking for.” but that’s my outlook. Gorick, do you agree? Anne-Lyse, do you agree? How do you end the conversation?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: I do agree that once you give your number, you shouldn’t try to negotiate against yourself. You’ve already explained how you get to the number. After that, it’s time to just move on, and talk about something else. I would give my number, and then see if there’s any reaction from the manager. Typically, you’ll get some type of reaction. Then I will try to wrap the conversation by asking when you can follow up, “I don’t expect you to give me an answer right now. When would be an appropriate time to follow-up with you, and pick this conversation back up?” I would, after the meeting, make sure to document what we discussed, sending an email, keeping a nice record of the conversation, and repeating the agreement that you had on when you’re supposed to follow-up.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. That email would be like, “Thank you again for meeting me today, where we talked about X, Y, Z, and just keep this as a reminder. We’ll be meeting again at this date.” That’s a good structure?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Yeah, I’ll just add a little fluff around the fact that you enjoy working with him, the company, and then just wrap it up exactly as you said. The reason why I’m mentioning following up with something in writing is something actually happened to me years back, a few years back. I had a conversation with my manager, and already he went back and talked to whomever he needed to talk to. At that point, it wasn’t official, but my manager told me at the time, “All right, already talked to the CFO. We’re good. We just need to get through this month.”

ELAINY MATA: Yeah.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Then two months later, my manager leaves, the CFO leaves.

ELAINY MATA: Oh, my gosh.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Now I have to go to HR, and say, “Hi, we’re working on this promotion, so can you tell me what’s going to happen?” HR asked me, “Do you have any proof of this? Because we are not aware.”

ELAINY MATA: Okay. Man, I would’ve cried, but thank you for sharing that. Yes, document, always, all the time.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Well, it’s a lesson.

ELAINY MATA: Yes. Yes. We’re going to lean into this last section, which is the aftermath of what happens after this big conversation. We have a listener question about this from Florian, and they said, “What would you recommend if the supervisor says something like, ‘We do not have the budget for that,’ or, ‘We are not able to meet your expectations.’“

GORICK NG: Yeah, I was neither an English major, nor a lawyer, but I can’t help but drill down on the specific wording that was used there. We? Who’s we? Is it you? Is it HR? Is it your manager? Is it your manager-

ELAINY MATA: Would you ask that? Would you challenge, and be like, “What do you mean is we?”

GORICK NG: That’s what would be going through my head. This is not a litigation here, but that would be my first shower thought, is, “Okay, how much of this is we can’t, versus I don’t want to?” Then, “We can’t,” or, “We don’t have budget,” I think I would try to understand that as well. One of the things that I think is just helpful to do in any of these situations is shower people with gratitude. “Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this for me. I really appreciate your support and your advocacy. I’d love to learn more about the conversation, and how I can best navigate next steps.” Keep it super ambiguous. I totally made that up, so make this your own. Meet with your manager, and this could just be in your next one-on-one. I would keep it super open-ended, and have them do the word vomit of what happened. You don’t know what they’re going to say, so I would just say, “Oh, thanks so much again. I’d love to hear more about the conversation that you had, and what went into this decision,” and then just shut up and let them speak.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah.

GORICK NG: They might tell you everything. They might say, “Oh, my goodness. I was really trying to advocate for you, and it was actually so-and-so,” or, “We’re just short on this budget line item, but let’s talk in three months, or three weeks,” or, “Hey, let me revisit this conversation with this other person.” Let them talk, because you really never know where that conversation would go.

ELAINY MATA: I have one question that’s actually really interesting to me, because I wasn’t introduced to this idea until last year. I’m part of a Slack channel for salary, or just money talk. Somebody had asked, “Are there other things that I can negotiate for if I don’t get the salary that I asked for?” I had seen these options like, “Oh, if you work from home, see if you can negotiate them reimbursing you for your wifi, because you need wifi for you to continue working from home, or ask if they can reimburse you for your E-ZPass.” I didn’t know that you could negotiate for more things outside of money if you don’t get the amount that you asked for. Is that a thing, and what can I negotiate for?

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Yeah, that’s definitely a thing. You can also negotiate for more PTO. Also, if you can’t get a salary increase, you can ask for a bonus, because it doesn’t come necessarily from the same bucket. Also, the bonus is a one-time commitment from the company. It’s worth asking. There’s a lot of things that you can negotiate outside of the salary itself.

ELAINY MATA: What about you, Gorick? What else would you add to that?

GORICK NG: Yeah. Well, you could ask for, for example, tuition reimbursement, budget to attend a conference, or particular professional development opportunity. I think the PTO piece is something that you can and should ask for. I’m thinking of a mentee/a friend of mine, who was up against some really tight deadlines, and a really stressful project, and hadn’t taken time off for a while, and through just a casual conversation ended up getting double their vacation days after this major product launch.

ELAINY MATA: Wow.

GORICK NG: Yeah, if you’re a trick or treating, and there’s no chocolate left, ask for candy. Totally.

ELAINY MATA: I like that analogy. Oh, I love this. I loved this conversation.

ANNE-LYSE NGATTA: Thank you so much for having us.

GORICK NG: Yeah, this is a ton of fun. Thank you.

ELAINY MATA: Okay, here are my three main takeaways that I got from the conversation. One, it’s never too early to start thinking about how to get your first raise, and figuring out that process at your organization. Getting a raise is a long game. It’s going to take time. Number two, have a strategy for negotiating about things other than money. Always follow up your conversation with an email. Number three, you are worthy. Asking for that raise is scary, but don’t let that stop you. I also want to underscore something that Gorick mentioned in passing that is really important: salary parity. Wage gaps and bias are real, and we didn’t even get into that as much in this episode, but we’ll drop some links in our show notes to help you think more about it. By the way, if you want more advice for career and money, check out Anne-Lyse’s podcast. It’s called The Dreamers Podcast, and it’s available wherever you’re listening to this one. Did you know that Gorick has a newsletter called Did You Know? You can subscribe on his website, G-O-R-I-C-K.com. Next week, we’ll be talking about layoffs. The first time it happens, it can be a huge shock for anyone. The pain and the sense of rejection are real, but we’ll help you find the hidden opportunities that come with the layoff, so you can bounce back and move forward with your career. Check back next week for that. Thank you so, so much to our listeners who shared their first raise questions and stories with us. We’ve had such a huge response to this topic, and we love hearing from you. Please keep sending us your stories and questions about work, and let us know what else you’d like for us to cover. Our email is newhere@hbr.org. If you send us a message, we have some amazing show stickers to send you. Again, our email is newhere@hbr.org. If you liked what you heard, follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you’re there, leave us a review and tell us what you think of the show. Then send the episode to your group chat, Slack, or wherever you talk work. Did you know that Harvard Business Review has more podcasts to help you manage your business and your career? Find them at hbr.org/podcasts, or search HBR wherever you listen. This episode was produced by Hannah Bates, Anne Saini, and me, Elainy Mata. Our editor is Mary Dooe, and our engineer is Tina Tobey Mack. Supervising editors are Maureen Hoch and Paige Cohen. Ian Fox manages podcasts at HBR, and our theme song was composed by Graz de Oliviera. See you back here next week. Bye.