Becoming a Leader When Everything Is Shifting

AMY BERNSTEIN: Once you’ve decided to go after a leadership role, taking the necessary steps can seem intimidating, even daunting, especially when everything, our work, our world is in this constant state of flux.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, I’ve seen quite a few pause around whether they actually want to do that in this moment, because it’s yet another change.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s Muriel Wilkins who runs a leadership development firm with Amy Jen Su. They’ve been coaching women through the crises and turning points of the last many months, including the Great Resignation.

AMY JEN SU: It’s the perfect time to go to your boss or a mentor or someone in the organization and say, I recognize there’s some attrition here., how can I help? How can I contribute? How can I continue to spread my wings and be a benefit to the organization? So recognize the opportunity exists and really go try to seize that.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Amy and Muriel gave advice for seizing a leadership opportunity in our 2019 episode, “Seeing Ourselves as Leaders” That interview is essential listening for any woman, looking to position herself as a leader, which is why we’re rereleasing it here. We follow that with an update that extends their advice to the context in which women are planning career moves today.

AMY GALLO: Nicole Torres, our former co-host co-pilots this interview with me and hearing her voice makes me so happy.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I loved hearing our old theme music.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.

NICOLE TORRES: And I’m Nicole Torres. Making the transition from being one of many on a team, an individual contributor, a follower, however you like to think of that role, to being a leader, is a process. It’s a process of not just convincing other people to see us as leaders, but also of convincing ourselves that we can and should lead. This episode, we are going to be exploring this process of becoming a leader, including the soul searching that women in particular often have to do to get there.

AMY GALLO: Our guests are experts on leadership development and friends of the show. You might remember Muriel Wilkins from our episode on visibility and Amy Su from our episode on claiming credit. They founded the executive coaching firm Paravis Partners and wrote a book together called Own The Room. And Amy Su just came out with a new book, The Leader You Want to Be. Amy and Muriel. Thank you so much for joining us.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you.

AMY SU: It’s great to be here.

AMY GALLO:  Do you remember the first time that you were being seen as a leader? But like the moment you realized, oh, actually other people see me as a leader.

MURIEL WILKINS: It was my first supervisory job, which looking back now, I was thrusted into this role and having to supervise individuals who are far more experienced than I was. And while I knew that I was there as a supervisor and as a manager, I certainly didn’t see myself as a leader, but everybody else did. And it took a couple of, a couple of big fails for me to step into the leadership role and recognize that it was much more than just making sure that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing. So I do remember it. And now in hindsight, probably a little bit more painfully than I’d like to.

AMY GALLO: How about you, Amy Su?

AMY GALLO: There was a day when I had really lost it on somebody who worked with me. And, you know, later when I debriefed with that person and you realized how much you were able to cause a bad day for somebody else. There’s just this moment that wow, you know, perhaps I’m a leader now and my temperament and mood and state of being is actually going to impact the way others feel.

AMY GALLO: Right. That ripple effect. It sounds like for both of you, it was not very positive. And as we’ve been discussing this topic, we’ve talked about how it’s a bit like an awkward growth spurt to go from someone who’s an individual contributor focused on learning, absorbing, to someone who is now seen as a leader. I’m curious if that’s how you think of it in your writing and your work with coaching clients. Is this sort of an awkward phase? An exciting phase? How do you characterize it?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I, you know, I never quite thought of it as awkward, but certainly an uncomfortable phase, which as we all know, that’s where most of the growth happens. And it’s hard because on the one hand, you want to go back to what you were comfortable with and what, what has made you successful up until now. And on the other hand, you know, that you can step into the role that you’re currently in the potential that you have. So certainly uncomfortable can definitely be awkward. And at the same time, I think one of the inflection points that is really great for growth for anyone.

NICOLE TORRES: So, I see two challenges or two things that make this such an uncomfortable phase. And the first thing is like, do you see yourself as a leader? But then the other challenge is if you see yourself as a leader, but other people do not. So maybe you’ve stepped into a managerial role or maybe you’re leading a project and you see yourself as being the one making decisions, but you don’t necessarily feel like other people perceive you as that leader. Do you see those two challenges play out?

AMY SU: Nicole, I think, both sides of that equation Muriel and I have definitely seen. Where there’s both your own shift internally around realizing that you are a leader and that you are bringing a different business judgment and a different set of decision-making skills to the table. And at the same time, as you mentioned, it’s also interesting to see how perception follows along with that. And I think in our coaching work, we’ve always seen that the internal shift often happens sooner, quicker, with a greater pronouncement than perhaps how others view you.

AMY GALLO: Let’s take each of those in turn. Cause I think the internal one, while it may happen quicker, it seems really for many people, especially women, hard to make that leap. And I’m curious when you coach clients who are making that leap, what are the major obstacles and how do you help them get there?

MURIEL WILKINS: In anything, right? The internal pieces, the harder part. And I think with clients, one of the big things they really need to embrace is that being a leader or acting as a leader doesn’t necessarily require the hierarchical position. And so a lot of them wait until they get the promotion, right? Till they’re the vice-president ,until they’re managing a team, assuming that that’s when they need to be quote unquote leaderly, as though it’s like, okay, it’s a rites of passage. We’ve promoted. Now you can wear your leadership hat. Whereas in reality, you should be preparing for this from day one. So a lot of what we have to work with them on is not just the mindset in terms of seeing themselves as a leader. What does that mean? How do they want to lead? How do they want to be known, but also starting to understand that there are some specific skills that help in terms of establishing your leadership, asserting your leadership, primarily around your communication skills, your ability to speak up, your ability to listen, your ability to ask good questions, how you lead your work and drive your work as well as even your physical presence, right? How you hold yourself in a room, in a conversation and can you do it in a way that again makes you feel like you’re a leader and makes others feel like they’re in the presence of a leader as well. So the minute I have a client who says with real conviction that they do want to lead, that’s actually the biggest breakthrough because they have to own it. Once we understand that, then we can work backwards to say, all right. So how do you do this in a way that supports who you are while at the same time being relevant and resonates with those who you need to lead?

NICOLE TORRES: Are there specific examples of things that you tell clients who come to you and they say, I want to lead and you know, you want to send them out and have them practice different styles of leadership. What are some things you tell them to do to establish themselves as leaders? If they don’t have the title that denotes certain responsibility, but they want to start embodying a leader. What do you tell them to do?

AMY SU: I think Nicole, the word embodiments really important that we could tell somebody all we want, that we’re a leader, we’re a leader. Let me tell you I’m a leader. And it’s really about the felt experience of the other person. So for example, you might be somebody who historically asked a lot of questions or asked for advice from others. And so, for example, Nicole, maybe in the past, I would say to you, Hey Nicole, how do you think I should price this proposal? And instead I think in a more leader stance, I might come to you now with what I call the comment and the question where I’m sharing with you, my business judgment first, and then asking a question. So instead I might say, Nicole, I’m thinking we should price this proposal this way. I think it inherently keeps the value of our firm and at the same time mitigates risks on renewals, but I really value your perspective. Do you think I’m missing anything here? So there’s a big difference in when our stance is historically, wow, I don’t have the answers. So I’m going to go ask others and follow versus I’m a leader I’m going to share with you my judgment, but then hold openness to other perspectives.

NICOLE TORRES: I love that.

MURIEL WILKINS: And then if I can add to that, I think if a client is working in a specific organization that has their own model of what it looks like to be an effective leader in that organization at a very practical level, I asked them, do you even know what it means to be an effective leader in this organization? If the answer is no, then they have to go on a little field trip to HR and ask, right? What does the leadership model look like here? Is there one? And usually it’s made up of, you know, eight to 12 skills and we start working on those skills.

AMY GALLO: We probably have people who are listening and saying, I’ve nailed the internal. I know I want to be a leader. I’ve looked at the competencies. I’ve started exhibiting the behavior, but people around me still don’t see me as a leader. Do you have any advice for women in that situation where they feel like they’re pushing to be a leader, but yet they’re not getting the response they want?

AMY GALLO: The word you use there, pushing, really says a lot. I think when we are coming from a place of trying to prove ourself, people can smell that and there’s actually a tremendous amount of insecurity that sits underneath of that. So there’s a distinction for me between I really own my expertise and I understand the business knowledge and skills and experience that I bring to the table. I think that feels very different than when you come to the table with, I need to prove that I’m an expert and I hope they see me as an expert. Somehow folks can smell the difference. And so I think we need to really push ourselves to say is the pressure to prove we’re being an expert, actually getting in the way.

MURIEL WILKINS: I think it’s important to also bring people along, right? Many times individuals are not pushing back on you trying to grow your leadership wings, spread your wings, if you will. It’s that they’re in, they’re not used to it. They’re used to operating with you and experiencing you in the way that you have been. I think that it’s actually really helpful to have a couple of advocates, champions, sponsors, who are excited for you to spread your wings and who you rely on in terms of getting advice and counsel and mentoring, however you want to call it, as you’re going through this passage, that way they are coming along with you.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. But how hard is it to get a manager or someone who’s mentoring you and trying to give you advice for how to grow and be a better employee? How do you get them to stop thinking of you as someone who needs a lot of direction and guidance? How do you get them to start seeing you as someone who can give direction to others?

MURIEL WILKINS: I think if there’s been a trusting relationship up until now, you acknowledge and show gratitude for the support that that person has given you and you make the request that they let you try it out on your own, right? So, it’s a both. You don’t want to shun them because they’re supportive and that’s an asset and you don’t want to let go of that asset. So, I don’t think it’s so much demonstrating, I think it’s actually having that explicit conversation with that individual.

AMY GALLO: That’s making me think too, that you also have to be specific. Because if you say to your manager, mentor, sponsor, I want to be seen as a leader, that could mean a zillion different things. So you need to say, I want to be able to make the decision on X. I want to be someone who people seek out for expertise on Y. I want to, you know, people to value my opinion when I speak up in a meeting. I think be more specific. And as you say, Muriel, making a request of here’s how you can help me do that. It’s really powerful.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right. And you can also ask in a specific way, right? Seek counsel and say “manager, I really want to work on my ability to be seen as a leader.” You know, six months from now, what would be some of the hallmarks that you’d want to see that you’d expect from me if that’s my goal?

AMY GALLO: You’re also making me think of when you mentioned the trip to HR earlier about figuring out what the competencies are. I also have seen people and have done myself, a lot of observing of other people. And I noticed once that someone I, that many people thought of as a leader often said at the end of the meeting, let me know if you want me to weigh in on that. And I was like, oh, I should use that. That’s a good line because it, it demonstrates I have expertise. I’m willing to help if you want my opinion, but it’s not necessary, you know, if it’s helpful, I will weigh in. And I thought that was like such a nice way to establish this person had expertise. This was someone people typically sought their opinion from. And it sort of said, I’m a leader without having to be like I’m in charge. Right?

AMY SU: Yeah. I think Amy, you’re mentioning something here that does distinguish a leader where you begin to see at more senior levels. People are just more comfortable batting ideas around with each other in a much more peer to peer stance. And oftentimes you see somebody who’s still trying to make that turn because they’re still walking in with the over-packaged document or the over-packaged presentation and they feel like, they can only speak when it’s about their area. And I think part of being seen as a leader is the willingness to bring your judgment, bring your acumen, bat things around in a much more informal way.

AMY GALLO: When I know you both talk about in your book own the room, about as you get a broader view of the organization, you’re trying to make connections between departments or units or different initiatives. So sometimes it’s even about asking questions, like, how does this impact so-and-so’s project? Or how are these two things connected?

AMY SU: And in fact, one of the exercises that I really like to give clients is as you are stepping into a bigger role or a new role, or you’re thinking of showing up as a stronger leader, what is the percentage of lead and percentage of learn that you need to have as an equation? And so there’s some part of our work that is, yes, we are leading, we are bringing our skills, we are bringing our decision-making, we are bringing our clarity, but there’s as much a percentage that’s about learning from other parts of the organization and holding a more open stance and actually being planful about that. Who are the other people or functions I could get more information from? What networks might I want to build in this next role? So it’s important to think about what’s my lead learn in any given situation.

AMY GALLO: I love that. Not only does that help you transition to doing more leading, but it also prevents the risk that you just become so focused on leading that you stop learning.

NICOLE TORRES: And that you think you have all the answers. But does that balance change over the course of your career? Like something that my friends and I talk about a lot is if you have, you know, kind of come of age in one organization, you know, maybe you started as an intern or you started at another entry level position and you stayed there long enough and you’ve kind of grown a lot, at least on paper in your role, but also in how you see yourself and how you understand the company. I think a big challenge is still like, how do you get people to stop seeing you as that intern? You know, who started like five years ago and start seeing you as someone who has a pretty good understanding of what the company needs right now and how this organization operates and can make good decisions to help lead it forward. I’m wondering if you have worked with clients who faced that similar challenge and how you help them overcome it.

AMY SU: It is a challenge. I think when you’re home grown, right? Where you’ve the organization has seen you at many stages of your development. And so I think many of the things we’ve already discussed here, number one, you, yourself staying updated to who you are and where you’ve been and where you are now is very important. Some of the things that Muriel shared earlier around making sure that you’re keeping others under the tent and being clear on your intentions of growth. And I think really trying to make the advantage of. That you have institutional knowledge, you have a loyalty to the organization, you have a history of relationships. And so as you continue to talk about your career development within that organization, how do you keep bringing those strengths and those benefits to bear in terms of the next difference you want to make? And I think you have to be careful to keep your eyes out for cues. So, if your organization keeps hiring external folks into roles that you want, or if you find that folks continue to treat you as if you are a version of yourself from 10 years ago, those are cues that you want to pay attention to and make sure you’re not stagnating.

NICOLE TORRES: And if you are seeing those cues, if you feel like you are stagnating, what do you do?

AMY SU:  I think first you try to have conversations with folks about your career development, that you do have a loyalty in history. You do feel like you add value. Be clear on the difference you hope to make next. And if still nothing happens that I think all of us and women especially need to understand that you have market value outside of your organization, and it might be worth having some conversations outside to see what might be possible.

MURIEL WILKINS: You know, this is where I think, and I don’t want to speak in general terms that all women are like this, but this is just my anecdotal experience in having worked with clients and as you said, like talking to friends. One of the areas that I don’t think women tend to look out for as much as I see their male counterparts do is when they are assigned a new position or role or project, do they make the assessment of, have they been set up for success? And so to this point around when your home grown, using that actually is an advantage. If you are offered a new role, a new position to really take a step back before accepting and negotiating what you can to make sure that you’re set up for success. And so what does that mean? In practical terms, for example, if you have a concern that the people who used to be your peers are now going to be reporting to you and how how’s that going to play out? Being able to get your boss or your manager to explicitly show your support and have that person help get buy-in from those peers, now direct reports. Sort of smoothing the stage before you get on is a way of setting up conditions to help you be more successful. We tend to have this mindset that when we’re offered these roles, you know, the mindset tends to be, oh my God, we’re so thankful. We’re great, you know, we’re grateful. Oh, lucky me that I made it this far versus what I tell my clients, I tell myself, I tell my kids like, no, like you’re lucky to have me, right? You’re lucky to have me, right? I’m bringing value. I’m bringing it on. I am excited to be here. You are excited to have me here. You offered me the role. So let’s, you know, let’s kick this thing off and really make sure it works for everybody. And I think that’s a mindset that really helps in terms of being able to get that support and getting people to see that you are also excited. You’re not stepping into it, hesitantly. You’re stepping into it because basically, you know, it’s almost like I’ve been ready for this, right? The time is now, let me go for it. And at the same time, as Amy said, use all the social capital and institutional knowledge that you have as a benefit rather than as a crutch.

NICOLE TORRES: So, I really like your advice on having explicit conversations with managers or whoever that, you know, lets them know that you want to lead and here are all of the things that you’re willing to do. And here are ways that you could use their support to get better. But I’ve also gotten the advice from people to like, just start leading. If you’re given the task to be in charge of something, then like, really assert yourself in leading that. So schedule meetings, start sending emails about those things, you know, like really attach yourself as the person who’s responsible for a given project. And I’m wondering, are there certain moments when you should just do that?

AMY SU: Nicole, I think that moment exists every day and I would encourage people to just do that, right? When you take any project that you’re working on, I think the push to ourselves to say, am I thinking about this project simply as a set of activities that I need to execute well? Or am I pausing to think about it differently? If I looked at the same business problem, but now I put it on a three-year horizon or if I thought about the risks involved, or if I thought about the competitive benchmarks, I think there’s so much more that we can each do every day to bring a different level of strategic thinking to the work we do, to the way we communicate. Are we framing up in a more senior level way? So I think the world of possibilities to demonstrate a higher order of leadership is available to all of us at every moment, whether somebody gives us permission or not.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. How do you stay, I know we all have those moments of doubt. We talk about imposter syndrome on this show. But if you are a leader, if you start seeing yourself as a leader and you sense that other people doubt you, you know, people think that you have progressed too fast, they kind of still see you as someone who needs training wheels. How do you just preserve your own sense of confidence so that, you know, you can lead and it’s some people are just wrong about you?

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, one of the things that I think is really helpful, particularly when you take on a management role for the first time and you start leading a team really upfront, very, very early on getting on the table, what people’s hopes and aspirations are in terms of you being the leader, but also understanding what their concerns might be, right? And that ability to listen upfront around the concerns gives you an added advantage in terms of being able to not get defensive, but address them and also hearing what the expectations are because the more that you can start being in tune to those expectations and potentially meet some of those expectations and get some quick wins that starts building your credibility. The biggest watch out is to get defensive because if you get defensive, it’s just going to alienate everyone, right? And you don’t want to be in that position.

AMY GALLO: What if you’re not sure if you want to lead?  What if you’re on the fence about taking on more responsibility? How do you decide whether this is actually something you want to do?

MURIEL WILKINS: This is where you really need to think through what do the next couple of years look like for you? I don’t think it’s a lifetime decision, right? Some people look at it as, what do I want to do with my life? And I, for one really think, just look at things in a three to five year horizon. Five-year seems like a very long time to me, so, so really focus on the next couple of years, rather than this is for the rest of my life. And from that standpoint, one of the best ways that you can do that is to look ahead, right? What could be the possibility five years from now? What are the different scenarios? And which one sits better in terms of being more aligned with what you want? What you don’t want to have happen is, I don’t want to follow that particular scenario out of fear and that’s a very different way of opting out. I remember early on in my career, I recognized that I was getting very close to really being in a position to gun for partner at a consulting firm. And while I did believe that I could do it, the question was, did I want to do it? And those are two very different things. So I think the first question is, do you think you can do it? The second is, do you want to do it? And while I believe that I could do it, I recognized after a lot of just my own self-searching and talking to others and looking at those who are ahead of me, even those that I greatly admired that that was not what I wanted and the reason I didn’t want it is that that wasn’t the way that I wanted to make an impact, right? And so having the ability to sit back and think about those two questions, do I believe I can do it? and do I want it? Are very critical.

AMY SU: And I think there’s, you know, people out there, similarly who in the question of do I want to do it end up being guided by a “should”. That career success looks like being a leader and having this many direct reports. And as long as that universe keeps growing, then somehow I’m successful. So I think Muriel’s point around, do I want to do it? Does this make sense for this next phase of my life? I had a colleague recently who went from leading a team of 50 people, an organization of 50. And she, and I talked about how at this stage of her life, as she looked at the next four years, both of her kids are in high school. And she realized that she went to her boss and said, over the next four years, I want to be home more. I’m finding that I miss some of the work I got to do day to day because now I’m really managing other people. So she’s moved back to an individual contributor role. And that’s what works for her at this time. So is she any less leaderly? No. I think this was a woman who was very in touch with what this next phase of life meant to her. And what was the work that was going to feed her as well as feed her family?

AMY GALLO: I like that because I think we often have this idea that leadership is just a straight incline and you just acquire more things, more initiatives, more people, and that’s the only way to grow. And I love that. She’s not any less a leader. She’s just stepping back from those particular responsibilities.

NICOLE TORRES: Amy, Muriel, thank you so much for joining us. This has been super helpful.

AMHY SU: Thanks so much for having us.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you. This was great. Thanks for having us.

AMY GALLO: Muriel and Amy Su, here we are in 2021 and so much about work has changed since we had that last conversation. Muriel, you started a podcast coaching real leaders where you advise leaders on how to get to the next level of their career. And then for Paravis Partners, the leadership development from you two run together, I understand the coaching sessions are mostly virtual for people who are also mostly working virtual. What new challenges have the recent shifts and how many of us are working presented to women who are aspiring to leadership?

AMY SU: Amy Gallo, I think the word shift is the key. There has been big shifts. We’ve had to, re-imagine what trust building and relationship building looks like remotely. And I think some of the challenges are that for some of the women leaders we work with, I’ve seen erosion in confidence and even erosion of trust, which is like, a core value. So I think all those things when shifts happen, you know, how do we shift along with them?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean, I think additionally, some of the regular leadership experiences that people have continue, regardless of whether you’re working virtually or not virtually. So what’s become critical, in my opinion, with my female clients, is that they take a step back and really start with what would I be doing if I was in the office? And recognizing that there’s really not that much difference in what you should be doing. The difference might be in how you do it. For example, if they need to be really accelerating their learning curve in the role that they’re in. When they’re in the office, it might be a little easier in terms of just walking into somebody’s office or by somebody’s cubicle and asking the question, but the power in that action is asking the question. So, it becomes, okay, so you’re now virtual, but the questions haven’t changed, who do you need to ask the questions of and how are you going to do that? Do you need to set up a regular cadence? Do you need to make it part of your weekly meetings? Do you need to just, you know, have something like a messaging system where you can just message questions? So, the challenge becomes more in the how rather than the what.

AMY GALLO: Right. You know, one of the challenges is actually getting others to accept you as a leader or to perceive you as a leader. Any advice about how to do that virtually? Amy Su, you described, being seen as a leader, hinges on the felt experience of the other person. How do you do that when you’re not in person?

AMY SU: I think the felt experience piece is so important. It’s the, how have I left the other person or audience feeling? And to Muriel’s point that’s as important a question, whether you’re in person or virtual. And so one of the ways to plan that out and to think about that is with clients, I will work with them to say, okay, one-on-one, one-to-one, one-to-group, one-to-many, what’s the feeling you want to leave each of those categories with, the felt experience, the impact? and then in a virtual environment, how do you do that? So for example, the one-to-group, which is really important, how do I build team? How do I build a esprit de corps amongst my direct reports who now don’t get to be together? You start to see leaders making decisions around, Hey, I’m going to do a daily, standup or a weekly standup and really the key is how do I create awareness amongst my team? How do I create empathy around the work we’re all doing? And how do I create a sense of a esprit de corps amongst us? So you’re not bringing people together to police their work. You’re with greater intentionality saying, if the felt experience is teaming, what are creative ways? I do think it demands a greater flex and creativity than perhaps before.

MURIEL WILKINS: But the, you know, the levers really haven’t changed, right? Like in terms of how do you know when you’re in the presence of a leader? What is that felt experience? You know, that felt experience is really based on two levers. Are they credible? And are they relatable? And so with my clients, I say, okay, like, yeah, you’re on zoom now. How do you come off as credible? And how do you come off as relatable? And when we slice that onion, they realize it’s actually not that different, right? Credible is how I deliver my message. Do I know what I’m talking about? Do I deliver it in a structured, concise way, in a way that’s relevant for my audience? And relatable is, you know, am I listening? As Amy said, am I demonstrating empathy? Do I seek to understand? Do I give verbal cues that, that demonstrate that relate-ability? Do I meet people where they are? And so when they start breaking it down into smaller chunks, they realize, oh yeah, it’s, it’s actually not that different. It’s just the mode in which I’m delivering that now.

AMY GALLO: Let’s talk about visibility. We did a survey of new hires, people who started their jobs remotely, and one of the biggest concerns that many of them raised was about being seen by senior leaders or other people in the organization. You know, as someone who’s trying to make that transition from either individual contributor to a leader, how do you think about visibility in this virtual environment? And how do you think about it in a way that doesn’t involve eight zoom calls a day and so you’re so burnt out at the end of the day?

AMY GALLO: I do think, Amy Gallo, it involves right up front, as you think about onboarding, as Muriel said, the same disciplines of what you would do on-boarding in terms of who are the key stakeholders, who should know you, understand your role, the connection points with those folks. And now thinking about that, every email you send is a point of visibility. And how are you showing up credible and relatable even in that platform or in the meetings where you do have the chance to show up? Those same principles of presence and thinking about the space where we’re in and awareness and almost imagining we’re in a room with others helps our presence to be more visible, even when we’re virtual.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, I think you definitely have to be more intentional and strategic around cultivating relationships then you probably would have to, you know, when you’re in the office, that that for sure has been a major impact, but in terms of thinking about how do I make myself visible within the organization or with my team, it takes a lot of planning to do that and prioritizing. So with my clients, it says, as Amy said, like being clear around who do I need to be visible with? How? In what mode? and why? And if they can answer those three questions, then we can solve for, okay, how do you go about doing it? The danger is when you don’t go through that thought process, and then you either become invisible or quite frankly, too visible you’re on everybody’s calendar too much. So being kind of strategic around it is, is really important.

AMY GALLO: The other thing that a few women brought up in the survey that we did was the idea of building trust as a leader in a virtual environment, any advice around how to either be patient with that process or to accelerate it?

AMY SU: Trust has been one of the big challenges, Amy Gallo. You asked us at the start of this, that, you know, how do we do that in a virtual world? And just the awareness of in the way that used to be able to walk down the hall and inform somebody or close the loop. Now I do think it just takes a little more intentionality, you know, who needs to know? Who needs to be involved? Who do I need to close the loop with so they’re not blindsided?  I think that extra step of organizational awareness becomes more critical in terms of trust building.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and I think about trust also is so much as about follow-through, following through on your commitments. And I think that maybe becomes more critical to do because you’re not having those informal interactions where you sort of give someone the benefit of the doubt if they forget to send that email they promised. You’re not seeing what’s happening.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. One of the things that can really deteriorate trust in a virtual environment is lack of responsiveness, right? You send that email because that’s the way you communicate, right? And it’s like, what’s happening? Is it in a black hole? Did they even receive it? You know, when you’re in person, you can see what the person is doing. So you could say, oh, they’re really busy, or I see their door has been closed all day or, oh, they’ve been in that meeting all day. That’s why they haven’t responded. But in a virtual environment, you don’t know what they’re doing. How you can mitigate that is by being responsive and communicating on what’s happening and kind of leaning more into over informing then you probably had to do in the past.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and even setting up expectations of like, I’m on back-to-back zooms today. If you send me an email, I’m not going to get back to it until tomorrow or whatever timeframe feels reasonable. I think that can probably go a long way for that, for that trust-building.

AMY SU: I think as well, making time and space to be intentional is really a challenge. And so with a lot of our leaders, we’ve had to advise, make sure that the first half an hour of the day, now that you aren’t commuting sit down and have that time and space for yourself. Don’t just assume you can start meetings right away. Grab that half an hour to look ahead at your calendar or look at your email to say, who might just need a one-liner that says confirming receipt of this. I want to be thoughtful. I’ll get back to you in a couple of days or tomorrow or whatever.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. You know, one of the things that we’ve seen happen in organizations over the last 18 plus months is that we’ve gone into this all hands on deck mode where people have to step up to help out. And if you’re someone who’s also at the same time, trying to be seen as a leader, step into a leadership role, how can you raise your hand to help volunteer for those extra activities without being seen as someone who’s more junior than you want to be perceived as?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean, I think that as long as you’re truly leaning in to being seen as a leader, then, you know, the one or two times we volunteer for something like, I’ll go grab the coffee or I’ll send out the holiday cards or whatever it might be, won’t be a detriment to you, right? So, you’ve got to lean into the leadership piece and the other stuff should enhance it as making you more relatable rather than have the impact of reinforcing that you’re not a leader.

AMY GALLO: I think too, you have to ask yourself, is the raising your hand a knee jerk reaction? I’m your gal every time. Or is it coming from a true leadership place, which is driven by principles and values? Which is, hey, I really see what’s happening. I want to rise to the occasion, be a part of this. So the source from which you are deciding to do that is a critical piece of if a leadership move or a default reaction to always saying yes or being the junior one.

AMY GALLO: Yep. I like that. Is this part of being seen as a leader or is this just like what I’m used to doing because people expect it of me or I expected of myself? Thank you both. It’s always so wonderful to have you on the show. And as always, I love learning from you on how to be a leader.

AMY SU: Thanks for having us.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you, Amy.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s our show. I’m Amy Gallo.

AMY BERNSTEIN:  I’m Amy Bernstein

EMILY CAULFIELD: And I’m Emily Caulfield. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Tina Tobey Mack, and Elainy Mata. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

AMY BERNSTEIN: We want to hear how you stepped into a leadership role recently. Tell us how that came about.

AMY GALLO: What was harder than you expected? What was easier than you thought it would be?

EMILY CAULFIELD: And did you move into a role more quickly than you expected to because of vacancies?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Tell us about your experiences and we’ll share some of them on a future episode. Email us@womenatworkathbr.org.